Sustainable Packaging Coalition is more than events with Olga Kachook (Director of the SPC)

https://sustainablepackaging.org/events/

It was so much fun and a true honor to get to interview my friend Olga Kachook 

As the Director of the Sustainable Packaging Coalition she has a lot on her plate and is doing amazing work. 

More than just events they are working to solve a lot of sustainability issues and make things even smoother for consumers and business who are trying to do the right thing. 

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Transcript

0:10

Welcome to Sustainable Packaging with Cory Connors. Today's guest is my friend, Olga Kachook , the SPC Director at Green Blue. How are you, Olga? I am good. Thanks for having me back on the show. Corey, it's great to have you back on. I love your perspective and what the SPC is doing, the Sustainable Packaging Coalition, I should say, and, it's such an important part of our industry and, I really enjoy all of your events that you put on, but you do so much more than just events, which is why I wanted to bring you on the show to talk about some of that work. Can, you've been incredibly busy lately. Can you tell us about some of this, store drop off work that you're doing? Recycled content work, composting, and more. Yeah, you're right. We've, we've been on a bit of a fact finding mission this year, or, a data binge, however you wanna call it. so we've been chasing, a couple of different data questions, and we're getting to that point in the year where the results are coming back, and I'm really excited to. To see what we've learned about some of these areas where there's just historically been questions, for brands as they make decisions about what route they wanna go for there different, formats or, the goals that they're setting and the progress that they've made, if they wanna continue that work. So, we can just get into it if that sounds good because I'm super excited about all of this. I love this, results. I know you've got tons of information and I think the audience will be really interested to learn. So, yes, please. Yeah. So you mentioned store dropoff. store dropoff is the main method in the US for recycling films and flexible packaging. So things like the plastic wrap that goes over a roll of paper towels or, the sort of pack that your diapers come in or your bread bags, the grocery store bags, for carryout if you use those. So in the US we can't put those items in almost all communities. You can't put those items in your blue bin. So if we want to recycle them. We have to take them to the store. And, we've been doing a lot of work this year, at the SBC around store drop offer or as we shorthand call it SDO. And, we've been looking at access numbers, so I won't get too much into this, but earlier this year, in April, we published some results looking at what percent of the US has access. To these types of, recycling systems and those numbers, you can find 'em on our website, but they're very encouraging. They're very high. so it is, most Americans essentially have, have access. They're within driving distance of these bins of these bins at stores like Target, Walmart, home Depot. Most of your major retailers have these types of programs, and many of the smaller ones do too. So w so we've been looking for different pieces of the puzzle. Earlier this year. We got that data piece about, how many consumers are within driving access. Now we wanted to find out how many consumers are participating in these programs or even aware of these programs. And I'll be honest, we were a little bit nervous about what we would find, because you just never know. Right. and it's a sticky topic, right? yeah. It's a sticky topic. And if I asked you like, what do you think? I don't know Corey, but probably we would guess not that many people are doing it right. I would've assumed the knowledge of it was really low because the people I talked to, don't really know about it. They walk right past it. They think it's, just in the way at the grocery store or the, wherever they're shopping. Right. Yeah. And and people are busy, they have other things to do. They're not, you might assume that they're not typically, paying attention to what's at the front of the store or, like how would they have learned about this? There haven't been national campaigns, there's no flyers or mailers going out. So, we expected the numbers to be, pretty low. And, we came back with, what we got was a lot of data about this and I don't have time to, to get into all of the different weeds 'cause there's different ways you can look at the data. And what we did was we looked at people who are aware of, the fact that they can recycle. Films and flexible packaging in grocery and retail stores and people that aren't aware. And then if you're aware, do you do it or do you not do it? So there's already four different groups there, or at least three different groups, and some different ways to look at the kind of unaware folks. so I'll preface all this by saying for the really, full, comprehensive data dive, keep an eye on, Us. As the SPC will be publishing these results later. So these haven't been published yet. This is our conversation is a little bit of a sneak peek into the results. I love it. yeah, it's super exciting. Excited. You heard it here first folks. Yeah, exactly. You heard it here first on the Cory Connors Show. Yeah. and the, so we'll be publishing the results soon. It'll be available to SBC members, the full dataset. And, we'll also be talking about it in detail, at our upcoming event, SPC Advance, which is at the very end of September, early October in, Boston. So we have a session there that's gonna really dive deep into all the results and the different ways to slice and dice the data. But, not to totally bury the lead. What I think is an astounding amount of respondents are aware of store drop-off and participate in bringing their items back. So 48%, which like that is so much higher than I would've expected, and what we found is that. Of the, consumers that, there's, like I said, a lot of different ways to look at the data. We also looked at the how to recycle label, which prompts consumers to bring items back to the store, and we found really great results around the label. the disposal instructions are, Driving consumers to, to actually recycle their clean and dry plastic bags and other films. other consumers, like a third of consumers, said that they would plan to collect several items and recycle them together, which totally makes sense, I think. For, viewers or listeners who do this, that's probably what you're doing at home. You're getting a bag of bags and then taking it to the store. but really, yeah, we found very good results. and even the consumers who were unaware that they could do this, which was about a third of the dataset, they indicated that they would. Start to do it now that they know through the, through even something as simple as the survey. So, really just, these small measures to improve people's awareness of the fact that this is the pathway and this is how you properly recycle bags and films, creates enough of a change that they say, yeah, now that I know I would do this. and for those that are aware, it's also. We found that, they weren't just like aware and brushed it off. 72% of these consumers said it was at least somewhat important to them to be able to recycle flexible plastic for materials at stores. So. That's incredible, right? Yeah. So what this tells us is that people care. They want this option, they want to be able to do this. And, this is important to them. They, they know that, that recycling is valuable and they wanna participate. and we also looked at, different awareness tactics, methods for improving, awareness and what are the different, points in a consumer journey where they would learn about store dropoffs. So, I could go on and on. that's really valuable info. That's great. Yeah, there, there was a lot there. I did wanna mention why is it so important, to separate the soft plastic films from regular recycling? And I know you and I have visited several Murphs and we A material recycling facility and that's one of the main things they say is. We don't want soft plastics because Can you talk about that a little bit? Sure. Yeah. Because they get caught in the equipment, and it's very expensive to have to turn off the machines and literally it's it's almost like a. It's like hair in, in a vacuum or something, you have to that's a great, yeah, that's exactly it. Yeah. You have to pull it out of the equipment. And if you've ever done that with your vacuum, it's a huge pain. No one enjoys that. So that's basically what you're having to do at a Murph. it's expensive. It requires, shutting down the whole operation to clean out plastic bags and. And can even be dangerous for the employees working there. Yep. Who work incredibly hard. right. But you're exactly right that imagine hair on a vacuum roller. That's such a great analogy for regular consumers like us that, that have done that. it's very difficult. You have to get out a knife or totally disassemble your, your right scissors. yeah. Yeah. yeah. There's no easy way to do it. It's always a project. that's an important thing, and it's exciting that the store drop-off program is improving. I know there's been a lot of, back and forth on is it working, is it not working? Does the material actually get recycled? And it sounds like the Sustainable Packaging Coalition has proven that it's working, it, the numbers are high, the awareness is higher than we thought, much higher. And, Even, do you have any plans for promotion of it or is there any kind of anybody that you know that will step in to say, Hey, a consumer you can do this. It's great. Yeah, we, definitely store drop off. Even though the numbers are high, we know that there is still a subset of consumers that aren't aware or maybe, missing some of the important pieces of this, of the behavior. Like the fact that you have to only bring in things that are clean and dry. So we have some data in the results about this too. Generally speaking, consumers do follow those instructions, but we know they. We, everyone would benefit from a campaign on this topic. So we've definitely been exploring that as, a future avenue because the space needs it. and, store drop off is, it has many pieces. We looked at the access numbers and making sure that enough people are able to access these programs. Now we're looking at awareness and behavior. And, like willingness to participate and actual participation. and then Corey, you mentioned something important, which is is it actually being recycled? So those are a lot of other questions downstream about, traceability, verification, and markets, all of that. We also. Really, need to focus on that as an industry to make sure that Yep, we can talk clearly and coherently about where these materials are going, and be able to tell that story to consumers. That this is, this, it's not a black box. We can tell you exactly what's happening. it's working. Yeah, it's working. So there's a lot more work that we need to do as an industry in that space. and we'll continue to, we as the SBC will continue to play a part in helping to, fill in these data gaps and, continue to push for what's missing in the space, which I think as you said, is the more insight into downstream that third party certification and, verification of the material and the recycling that's happening. That's great news. Maybe some of this EPR funding can, could be used for a campaign, Yeah. Yep. to tell the consumer about, Hey, look, this is working, and here's what we're turning this material into, and thank you for doing it. Yeah. Yeah. Well done. Yeah, that would be great. let's switch gears a little bit here and talk about, compostable packaging and composting. in Oregon where I live, there's, it's really a challenge because not everywhere has availability for compost. And, especially with compostable packaging, the, Local composters don't want that material. But I know the SPC has done a lot of work in this area. can you talk to us about that and what's being, what's in process there? Yeah, so this is another one of those areas where. We have as an industry, fundamentally mi been missing. Really key information, very basic information about what percent of consumers has access to composting. We haven't, we, we haven't even really been able to answer those questions. And then when you dig deeper into, do these programs accept compostable packaging and what kind it, it all starts to, to become a lot of kind of shoulder shrugging. So that's why we wanted to take on these, To take on this question so that we can help brands and retailers and everyone working in this space have a better sense of what the end of life options are for this type of packaging that they're developing. And I should say we, we did an early version of this work in back in 2020, that was five years ago. So it was definitely time for an update. And what we wanted to do is very simple to understand. Like I said, what percent of the US population has access to composting? And, we looked at, earlier this year, we partnered with, a company to help us, essentially. Web scrape and then do human QA QC on 6,233 cities in the us, which represent 60% of the US population. So a lot of cities. That's awesome. Going from, New York as the most populous down, smaller and smaller as you get lower on the list. so the thousand, the 6,000 largest cities in the US basically. And, this is another one of those areas where I think people in the industry and also in the public, expect these numbers to be. Abysmal, like really low, and you mentioned some of the challenges in Oregon and you think, oh, Oregon, Right. You guys, if you guys can't pioneer your way out of this, what are we all gonna do? Exactly. So let me ask you what, what, take a guess, what do you think the national sort of access number is for some kind of composting program? Oh wow. I would say, Curbside or drop off? yep. Close to 15% maybe. Okay. I would say really low. Okay. yeah. Fif and some people might say 15. that's pretty good, Cory. that's not low. That's okay. so again, won't bury the lead. What we found is that. 35.9. So almost 36% of the population has access to some kind of composting program. That's great. That's so much higher than anyone would've guessed, right? 36%. Basically. And like you said, this includes different kinds of programs. So curbside, curbside collection. Drop off, run by cities or counties. So, your municipal program similar to recycling and landfills, but also private collection. And this, what that means is you pay a separate subscription fee and it's, oh yeah, it's like a compost now or some of these other larger, large like localized providers. So we looked at these different types of composting options, which I think is important because sometimes people only look to see if it's run by the city. But, there's nothing wrong with, a private company offering the service. And in many cases it's a public private partnership where the city will promote. this local service, on their website. So, they're very compatible. And in some cases it's also a stepping stone of, first it's offered by a local company and the city's not very involved. And then as the program grows, the city starts to promote it, maybe even subsidize it. And, then in a few years you could be looking at a sort of established program like, like in Portland or in, Seattle. That's in, that's incredible. And I've heard that, some of those programs actually, you'll collect your, compost in a bucket and then they'll pick it up and then they'll all even bring back, yep. Com composted and processed, soil for use right in your garden. Yeah. Yeah. So a lot of those programs I have what you're describing. and the other really interesting thing, not to go down a bit of a rabbit hole, but the other interesting thing is that some of these companies are also starting to offer, porch side pickup of hard to recycle items. So, oh, great. They will also like grid, well, those kind of things. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So they might pick up textiles or films or styrofoam or some of the other things that aren't accepted in the bin. so they're starting to offer a variety of services sometimes. I think there was one company I saw that was picking up like glass in a community that did not offer curbside glass recycling. Yeah. So, recycled and, yeah. Right. Yep. Yep. Yeah. So there's nothing wrong with, this private collection and, our data, which is quite you. There's, lots of different ways to, again, spice and dice it. Look at the numbers. If you're just interested in municipal service, that's curbside, and not drop off, you can look at that if you want the bigger picture, you can look at that. If you want to see, only the programs that accept compostable packaging in addition to food waste, you can look at that. But, the, all of this data is gonna be available. On our website, very soon, to members, the full dataset and, version of all of this data for the public as well. And, I'll be going into all of this more in, in more detail outta session in advance too. So diving into some of these numbers, different ways to look at it, and to also explore. I mentioned, we did this back in 2020. it was a smaller data set back then, so it was a thousand cities, At the time. So we've exponentially increased the dataset since then, so we have much more data that's changed. Yeah. But even just comparing the change from five years ago to to 2025, I think we're at like a nine percentage point growth in composting access. Despite the pandemic, despite, challenging times, we are seeing composting access growing in the country, which is, I think really great news and something that we don't talk about enough. I agree, we don't, it's important to, to learn about these things that are positive changes in the industry. There's so much doom and gloom, and it's very frustrating as a, as somebody like you and, that we care about this stuff and we want, we, I'm often getting phone calls and text messages, Hey, what do I do with this? How do I, what do you recommend? And I think. The private sector is picking up where the public sector is struggling and saying, Hey, we can develop a company that does this. And, it's a great system. Recyclops, rid, all TerraCycle, these companies are really stepping up to say, we can pitch in here. you mentioned, Compost now, I think is a, is another one. these are great resources for people to step in and make a change, but how do we get, what is the SPC doing to tell people about this stuff? things like, recycling and recycled content of material. What is the PCs doing to step in and say, this is how we teach consumers about this. Yeah. I think the first step is teaching the industry we have, right? We e even between, you and I, just this convers conversation of we expected it to be lower. we weren't particularly optimistic about either of those numbers, the store drop off or the composting. and making sure that we know some of this information and we know the direction that the, that the waste industry is heading and, that we're really. Seeing the full picture of the state of recycling and the state of composting in the us. So that's been quite a bit of what we've been doing at the FBC this year, is like trying to, to color in that, color in that map of this is what this is, these are the options, and this is what we have today and this is how we can grow. you mentioned recycled content, so that's the other big one that, Companies, pursue as a strategy for sustainable packaging. So recycling, composting, recycle content goals. most companies have them. It's now mandated by a number of states that certain packaging formats will have a minimum percent of recycled content. So that, that's definitely been a huge area of interest for our member companies and I think for the packaging industry at large. And that's another. Really exciting area where we've done research, and we're going to be sharing it out advance, at a session. You can, get a lot more information. there you can hear from some of the funders their motivations for, for doing the research and that some of the barriers that they were facing internally. I think one of the big challenges for brands has been convincing, their peers internally that recycled content is something that consumers care about. Because, oh, I like that. That's a great point. Yes. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So we haven't all even been on the same page about is this something that's worth designing for, pursuing, talking about, on unpack. So this recycled content research that we, that we did through a coalition of, funding companies earlier this year, and in the. 2024 looked at recycled content claims and, essentially do consumers understand on powered recycled content claims, like your typical, made with 50% recycled content, what do they think of that? Is that motivating to them? And the, this is another one of those, very rich areas for findings. We, we found out a lot, and I wanna do it justice by not getting too into the weeds, but at a high level. Are rightly so confused about the difference between recycled content and recyclability in a big way. Like very confused. That makes sense because why? It makes sense because what we've often done, like what you've often see on packaging is recycled content claims Right next to recyclability claims, there's a Mobius loop and it's all kind of part of some, there's some sort of dance happening there with those claims. Right. And who knows what it means. It all seems to mean the same thing. So that's such a great consumer. Consumers are confused. But the good news, what we found is that. When consumers are told the full story of what recycled content means. It becomes the number one most important packaging attribute when it comes to sustainability. Oh, that's fascinating. So it becomes more important. Yep. More important than recycling actually, the fact that it's recyclable. And so knowing that a product is made with recycled content and understanding what that means, understanding that there's environmental benefit already baked into the product you're holding even before you go on to then recycle. That is huge, that there's a huge opportunity there to communicate all of that to consumers, to build that awareness and to rebuild faith in the recycling process. to feel good about the fact that, oh yeah, this whole recycling thing is happening with the recycled content bottle I'm holding, and it's happening with the fact that I can put it in my recycling bin. And I understand the same, these two sides. Right? Right. So. there's these results are really important for our industry to understand, to know about, to get right, because it unlocks all of the work that brands and companies have been doing around recycled content. It unlocks the, the, so what the, so what is that? This really matters to consumers. That's it. The so what I love that. And you, it's such a valuable, it's such an important message for the industry. what you just said is consumers care about it if they understand it. And like you said, it's the number one thing that they would care about on that packaging. they're assuming it's recyclable. I think maybe and to know. Yeah. I think that's becoming maybe more and more table stakes, right? And so having this other piece of oh, and it's actually made from bottles that were already recycled or, There's already a, a la an emissions reduction. Because it's been made with recycled content. that's an, that's where I think the extra, benefit is coming through. but like I said, there's a lot more to unpack with the research in terms of what types of claims really resonate, how to tell an effective claim around recycled content. So we'll be diving into all that and more, in the findings report and at the event with the session that's gonna be, unpacking these results. But, I guess I'm here to just, give you the. the hot takes and the previews. I think you're exactly right. This, Boston event, this SPC advance event in Boston, September 29th, is going to be incredibly valuable for SP, for brands. to understand why and how they should be using recycled content and, what they should be, how they should be messaging that to their consumers. I think. So this is, really valuable. your events are always incredibly valuable, but it sounds like, this is a must attend this year. And, EPR hasn't gone anywhere, so there will still be plenty of sessions on extended producer responsibility and what this, what it means for, for companies. reporting. We now have seven states where EPR laws are on the books, so there's. I know for many companies this is the number one priority is figuring out, EPR reporting. But these things all fit together because there's a huge data piece. in the EPR discussion, there will be questions about, is it actually getting recycled? Is it, can it be composted? all of this works together. and as I mentioned, recycled content laws are also very popular across the country. and so you, these things. They all play together. Yes. And I'm excited that a lot of the laws have, the truth in labeling, Included on there. So there won't, you won't be able to greenwash it's going to consumers, will have to. Be told what's real. And I think what you've done with your How to recycle label is, and I should say it's more than just a label, it's a program, that will, people will understand that, oh, that this little symbol means store drop off and I can do that here locally. So I wanted to congratulate you and the team for your work on that as well. Thank you. it really is a team effort. Everyone is, trying to row in the same direction. And we also have a lot of our peer organizations, and nonprofits that are supporting store drop off and Supporting, helping us all know what's really going on with recycling and acceptance rates and different communities. So, these efforts to fill in the data gaps Yeah. I think are critical at this stage so that we can make better decisions. And to also, like you said, have some optimism and some faith in the fact that the industry is improving and access rates are growing, collection rates are growing, that, we're rowing in the right direction. It finally feels like things are going the right way. And it's taken years and years to make this happen. But, I think the SPC has been a big part of that with them. Thank you. I can't wait to see you in Boston, September 29th. Yeah, through October 1st. me too. What a great event to, to attend. So if you're listening, make sure you, sign up for that today. Yeah, we're really looking forward to it. it's gonna be fantastic Boston. It's such a great venue for us, to return to. I think people love it. And it's just so easy to get to, from, really all the big cities. Hop on that train. join us in, in Boston. It's a beautiful place and, very exciting, food options and really neat place to visit. I was so impressed last time. thank you again, Olga. I appreciate you. Thank you so much, Corey. It's always a pleasure to be on.