Kenya National Waste Pickers President John Chweya

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Over 36,000 people are part of this association of waste pickers in Kenya and it's a truly impressive story about how they are working to make a circular economy while being healthy and safe and having a living wage. 

So much needs to be done to make this fair! 

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Transcript

Cory Connors: 0:15

Welcome to Sustainable Packaging with Cory Connors. Today's guest is my friend, Mr. John Chweya , the president of the Kenya National Waste Pickers Welfare Association. How are you, sir?

John Chweya: 0:28

Hey. Hello, co. Thank you for hosting me today. It's a real pleasure to be here and to talk to you about our work.

Cory Connors: 0:36

It's great to see you again. And, we met in Japan at the United Nations Environmental Program where we both spoke about, our perceptions of, of what's going on in the world of sustainability. And, I was just really excited by what you had to say about the community there that you lead, and, all the good work that you're doing to support those, amazing people that are working so hard to help, recycle. And, so really impressive and thanks again for coming on, John, but I was hoping to, before we start with all that, let's talk about your background and what got you to this position of leadership.

John Chweya: 1:13

thank you. Thank you again, Cory So, my background is that I've been a waste picker now for more than 21 years. I started doing the job like way back when I was turning 13. And, just like other waste pickers that I know, very few of them or normally like born in families of waste picking most, most of us like end up. Coming into this job, mostly at a very younger age because of the financial situations, back in the house, very much pushing us towards having to, go out there and find something to eat or, to find some sort of income generating activity to also support with feeding the family. So at that particular age, I also found myself in this situation and I had to go out and, start, one of the easiest way that I could start already getting some small money or just accessing food was to, pick, scrap metals and recyclable, Products that were all over the surrounding. And that is how, like my life started as a waste picker through the years. Also, like the work is generally, meed with a lot of stigma and a lot of discrimination. And these are things that I did have to face at a very young age. And, de I definitely did not in any way, like it and I could see how. Psych how deep and how, bad it was getting into other colleagues of mine that I used to work with. And, at a bit older age, I decided that this is something that someone needed to change and that someone was not going to be the people that are part of the problem. So it was going to be like one of us. And I mostly took, The initiative to start negotiating with the municipal government officials and start talking with our colleagues on how best we can maybe come together and start representing ourselves our rights and our welfare as people who are already like. doing a job that is very much, appreciated by communities, but not the people who are doing it. So that is that basically is what drove me, to start organizing this because that are at a very young age back in my city, in Kenya, small Lake City called Kiso.

Cory Connors: 3:32

And are you still there at the same area of Kenya or have you moved to a different city? Yeah. no, I'm totally still in the same area. Great. Well, the work you've done is impressive, and the numbers that you spoke about, the quantity of people that are currently living in landfills and working in landfills absolutely blew me away and just, was a very big surprise. And I'd like to talk a little bit about that. There's, I think you mentioned over 30,000 people that are waste pickers in Kenya alone. is that about right or in your organization at least? Yes.

John Chweya: 4:09

So fast forward, Four years back, I was elected as the, national President of the Kenya National Speakers Welfare Association, association that has a membership of more than 36,000 now. And, these, people and colleagues that already saw the job I was doing with advocating and, trying to make sure that mostly policy makers recognize their rights and, the integral role that we have been playing historically. when, when I was elected to this position now, I had to not, not only represent the people from my municipality. Now I represented like waste Pickers across, the boundaries, all within the boundaries of Kenya. So I had to like, explore to, because the biggest membership of the association is from Nairobi, where. The biggest landfill in East Africa is that, is Dandora has more than 10,000, members, meaning that more than 10,000 waste pickers working within that particular landfill. And, like generally now, I have worked almost in. Through all, almost all of the dam sites or the landfills in Kenya. And one thing that is very certain is that the challenges that we face as waste pickers are the same. it could be maybe just different, by context, by little context, but generally the challenges that we face are the same. And these are some of the things that made it easier, for someone like me to also do the organizing work. It was not only, um. a job that I did myself, of course, the National Association has, very many leaders from different municipalities that have also been, very much helping with the organizing work and also the representation and the, advocacy with, the national and the local government. So it's been like about, Like about 20 years of trying to change the same thing and trying to make not just, the policy makers, but also the communities where we work and live in that, we are, human beings and we have been historically doing an integral job. And that, now more than ever, our rights and our voices have to be heard. And we have to also, find justice not just for the job we are doing now, but also for the historic depth of the job that we've done over the years. Like for example, myself, I've done it for more than 20 years. Yet at the very time that I lived at the Landfill in Kiso, I had like colleagues there that had been. Doing the job for the past 20 years, some of whom are still in the job. So it means that literally there are people that have more than 40 years, experience working in waste these are real time knowledges. These are people that like, carry with them, all the knowledge that you can, think of, around waste. So, yeah. Impressive. That is

Cory Connors: 7:15

just

John Chweya: 7:16

a bit of

Cory Connors: 7:16

backlog. Yeah, you're right. It's, you are integral to the process and the people that you support and work with are integral to the, just the entire circularity system is. It's such a valuable thing that you and your team are doing there and all the members, What kinds of materials are you finding that are valuable in, what kinds of things are the waste pickers focusing on?

John Chweya: 7:43

So, just to give you a bit of history, when I started working as a waste picker, then mostly it was metal. But over the years, especially like around in the early 2000, we started like also getting a lot more value for plastic. Okay. Initially, there was not a lot of plastic. But, then in the early two thousands there started being like, a lot more plastic, bottles. Coming also, and also like being, a lot more in, spaces where we worked, just also for. For the record that the association I represent three categories of waste pickers. The, those that collect from the streets, those collecting in households, mostly low income areas, and those that particularly just work at the landfills. And, you'll notice that the ones that are collecting from the streets and the ones collecting at the landfills, particularly just Reclaim, just, recyclable materials, those that have value, right? the ones that are picking from households mostly take everything then sort from All the mixed waste and recover just the the value. Recyclables and then the organic, which is mostly not value or does not have value. And also the non-recyclable plastic, the single use plastics are also, just taken to the landfill. So representing these three categories means that mostly, we collect as waste pickers. We mostly just collect, oh. the waste that has value that is mostly cartons, plastic, PET and HTP, cans, metals. yeah.

Cory Connors: 9:21

And. I think people would be interested to know how the workers, get paid. they're working for the day they're, 'cause I, the only thing I can associate this with, from my history is I used to pick strawberries when I was a kid. And that I, where I live in the US it's we grow strawberries and you could pick strawberries when I was 10, you, or 11. And, they would pay us by the. crate, or the flat is what they would call it. is it something that they're weighing the amount of material that is being picked or you're bringing a bag, or how does that work? I.

John Chweya: 9:56

so generally it's about the weight that you bring to mostly the aggregators. And, Cory would tell you that this is the most interesting part. The most outrageous to me because, mostly you'll find that a bigger percentage of, the work that we do mostly like, ends up benefiting the aggregators and the recyclers because. Very many instances, the aggregators are the people that are deciding the price to which they buy our recyclables. And that is a big problem. And that is also one of the things that I've been very much championing to change. That there's no way, and there's I've, that is the first ever scenario where I've seen a customer deciding the price to which they want to buy, your product. You walk into a shop and like walking into a supermarket and deciding the price to which you want to buy like a bottle of milk or like a bar of soap. It's, it never happens. But to waste Pickers, it happens because, I remember In very many instances, you'd walk, or you'd walk with a very big sack of, because the people collecting at the streets have to have like sacks on their back where they keep on walk and keep feeling like any recyclable. They come across and most of the time you keep on working knowing that. The more you collect, the better, prices you'll get. And then when you get to the aggregators, let's say in the evening, you find that a kg of PET that yesterday was 15 shillings. Today is five shillings. And there's totally no notice about that, and there's totally no apology or anything. It just tell you that, that is a price today. Take it or leave it. But because again, you've been walking with 200 kgs of plastic on your back and you maybe you're tired, you've not, chances you've not eating anything. And also chances that. Getting to the next aggregator is like two or three more kilometers. You end up like taking what you are, what you're offered. And that is one of the biggest problems. So that is a problem that, I've been trying to solve with the aspect of collective gaming, where each and every municipality can converge all the, all the recyclables they collect and directly begin with, recyclers.

Cory Connors: 12:18

Yeah, you're exactly right. it's tragic. It's, it's, definitely not, sustainable for the people doing it. I think you all deserve, a living wage and there needs to be some oversight of that, some kind of, help making some kind of a minimum price, that they must. Give you for your efforts, right. And I applaud you for your efforts and your work in this area. And hopefully this podcast will, go crazy viral and get all over the place and people will hear about it, and hear about your plight. And, somebody somewhere listening will be able to help. Make this better for the people involved is my hope. I really, I hope so too. According,

John Chweya: 13:04

yeah.

Cory Connors: 13:05

Yeah. It seems, like you said, it seems like they have too much power and influence on what they are paying for the material and, that, they certainly need to be paying, something more appropriate to the workers. So. Let's talk a little bit about simple ways that people listening can help. you mentioned that the people in the community really could appreciate, personal protective equipment like safety vests and, gloves. Is there any anything else that they, that people could, either donate or supply at significant discounts?

John Chweya: 13:43

Yes. Yes. Corey, you also noticed that, I don't know if maybe you do get a picture of what, The environment to which some of us work in looks And, one of the biggest challenge that we've also encountered as, west Pick leaders is that, there's always the problem of health. I remember at the very first years of, my, tenure as the president of the National Association, I would get like hundreds of messages a day of. Like some colleagues that had succumbed in different dump sites or someone that was, experiencing a medical condition that was urgent. And this is all because that we have, we are working in, in environments that are very toxic because like you can imagine all the organic and all the, all the plastic waste that is not recyclable, constantly burning and you. People are constantly like inhaling, the, the plastic that is burning. And we know that plastic is also, made with, multiple polymers that are harmful to the health. So health is like basically one of the biggest challenges that we have, as. waste pickers yet, we still build like re resilience to that. We've had, I've personally, done a lot of collections like fundraisers for PPEs, and we've prioritized, like our colleagues that are work are working in the landfills, but that is still not sustainable. Like for instance, right now. I'm trying to build on the resilience on and the financial capabilities of waste pickers that are working in, in, in Kisumu. Kisumu is one of the cities in Kenya and we are doing a fundraiser to buy a truck because like we, we've been very much thinking of What are some of the solutions that can, both get our colleagues that live and work in the landfills out of the landfill, but also increase, the, the income of those, that are working in other places and also increase like collection and clientele and, Most of like organizations and most of governments do not prioritize sustainable solutions because some fundings, are normally there, but do not very much. Look into the problem and see that whatever resource is put into a particular problem should be something that is sustainable and something that is going to like particularly solve the problem. So I, I normally say that there's a lot of projects that. Do not come to solve the problem. there's a lot of, organizations that, are doing a lot of work with a lot of resources on talking about the problem, but not actually solving them. Okay. So right now, I'm, running, fundraiser. To get a truck. Right. And I believe that through the systems that we've already created as, waste pickers within the municipal groups, like when we get one truck, we know for sure that this builds on, the resilience, it builds on the income, it also builds, it widens the, clientele network and getting one truck, it means that we will not be, going back again to. To fundraise. It means that the truck that we get, because there's a lot of income right now that is being lost on transport. When we get one truck, it means that we can save and get, another truck. That means that building in onto this resilience, then we can, and The financial independence, it means that within our own organizations, we can very much invest in trucks and build our, build on our finances and like literally be able be in our, be in a position that we can afford our own PPEs, we can afford our own gloves, our own minerals, and our own gum boots and that's, that is one very sustainable solution that, I've been very much venturing.

Cory Connors: 17:46

We will put a link to that effort. I assume it's like a GoFundMe or is it, is there a Yes. Okay. Yes, it's a GoFundMe. So I'll ask you for that link and we'll put it in the notes of the show so people listening can donate to that. That's the kind of thing people like to support, because like you said, once you get one truck, you'll be able to earn more money, then you'll be able to buy another truck and the, and then before you know it, you'll have 10 trucks and, you'll have better, safer living quarters and you'll have more PPE and, it just, it's a snowball effect of self sustainability, which I think is wonderful. So I think you've got it down right. This is gonna work.

John Chweya: 18:26

Thank you.

Cory Connors: 18:27

Yeah. Just, just for everyone listening, how much does a truck, like the one that you're looking for, cost, what's, can you translate that to US dollars? Is that possible? or,

John Chweya: 18:38

the truck, like the fundraiser. It mostly costs around like 30,000 US dollars. Okay. that is a very good track that, that also also comes with, some maintenance as we start operating it. And that is a very good track. That is a very good track. Also considering the terrain because the terrains are especially going to the landfills that very bad terrains the road are weather roads that most of the time, when it rains, most trucks cannot access the dump site.

Cory Connors: 19:13

Yeah.

John Chweya: 19:13

So that is a very good track that can very much withstand the, the terrains,

Cory Connors: 19:20

on weather. That's great. I understand that you probably need a four wheel drive vehicle with some pretty beefy tires and yeah, you need something that'll handle some tough roads. So that makes a lot of sense. I think we'll get some attention to your fundraiser through this.

John Chweya: 19:36

thank you. Thank you. Good.

Cory Connors: 19:37

Yeah, so I wanted to talk a little bit about packaging, 'cause this is a packaging show and, I wanted to get your opinion on what kinds of things can people like me in the industry do to make packaging. so it's more valuable to waste pickers. So it's more circular.

John Chweya: 19:55

yeah, that this is also very interesting, topic, Corey, and I'm happy that I got to meet you and I got to learn on what you're working on, especially on packaging, because if you notice what we work, we also collect and what we recover value from is packaging. And, I think that is very important also to industries and companies that, are using packaging that whatever is. Remaining at the landfills that we work in, whatever is in our communities, whatever is in the streets as pollution, mostly is normally packaging. And one thing that I've als, I've always been championing around even the plastic treaty that I've been very much, aggressively attending, is that packaging has to be something that can be taken back. Because from what I understand is that. when communities, when people, when individuals are buying anything that is packaged, they, the cost of the package is also attached to whatever the community that they're buying. Right? And this particular cap, package has to be something that can be recycled. And at our level, you'll notice that waste pickers mostly only pay quarters. What has value? Right. there's also a bit of challenge that we've had with the design bit of packaging where there's a lot of, a lot of packages, mostly plastic, that are branded as recyclable while. No one is taking them back for recycling, so that is also like a problem. Yeah. But generally what I'm trying to say is that all packaging is. Is bought because package is also normally in the pri in the price of packaging is also included in the, in, in the commodity, right? Whatever commodity anyone is buying, the price is also always there. And that price should be recovered by the people who actually, recovering the package from whatever place it is. Because if you look at, the spaces where we work in, if you look at take the landfill. The landfill horse waste from all over corners. Like most of the people, most of the communities, most of individuals do not very much know where, the packaging they normally discard ends up in. We know, good point. We know what kind of packages that come to spaces where we work in and all of these things are, have, are value. Because someone paid for it to have it. And Korea would tell you that even, today, if you walk into a supermarket and maybe you went to buy apples, and the apples are wrapped in, in some plastic case, it means that, the prices of the apples also the plastic case cannot in any way be free. Right. So you're not only buying the apples, you're also buying the package, the wrapping that is, that is used to package it. So, exactly this has to add value from me. From my point. I normally see that this has to add value, and this value should be reflected to the people that are actually recovering it, right? Because if I can recover, it means that I should recover the value of. Whatever, it was priced at in the beginning, right?

Cory Connors: 23:26

That's absolutely, exactly the point here. I think you're right. This is what we need to understand as a circular economy. where I live, we have a deposit system, a deposit return scheme where we add 10 cents in cost when you buy a bottle of soda or, Any water, anything. and then people are waste pickers, will collect those and turn them back in for money. And do you think a system like that would work where you live? Is that or is that not feasible?

John Chweya: 24:04

I think so far that is a system that is not feasible. very much. it's not very much feasible because, also thinking about, uh. the cost of investing in such an infrastructure against what is already like the priorities here. It's to, it's totally a different context, but thinking about it, it's, it's something that, could, one, if we well, allocate the resources that are there to the people that are actually already doing the job, that are not being in any way resourced or in any way supported then. If the system is something that can be co-produced by the people who have historically been doing the job and has the, have the knowledge about it, yeah. Then I think it could work. Because Corey, I would tell you that one of the biggest disconnect between systems and how they function has always been that the systems are normally meant to, replace, the human element that I've always been doing the job without consulting or without integrating the, the historic knowledge and Right, without like bringing on board the knowledge that they've. Always been having around the job. So

Cory Connors: 25:21

yeah,

John Chweya: 25:22

that's, I believe is one of, one of the things that I've been a very big disconnect between, realizing impactful systems.

Cory Connors: 25:30

I think and that's why it's so impressive, the work that you're doing because you're getting to the table where these discussions are happening, like at the UN and at these different organizations. do you have any plans to speak at any other events coming up soon where people can see you?

John Chweya: 25:47

yeah, I think, there's, there's the INC 5.2 that is set for Geneva and, I believe that I'll be going there. Good. I, we are hoping that is the last INC that, we will be attending. So, Generally we, we are just hoping that every policy that is going to be made around something that very deeply affects our realities is going to also make sure to integrate our voices and our realities, because, there is that historic knowledge that we have again, and also that historic depth of, the years, that we've been. Part of a solution without any support. So that is something that for us, is very crucial, that all the policies, are just, and that they leave no one behind. Because we also know that most policies are normally influenced by industries and by, organizations that tend to benefit without necessarily also right. Integrating, the people, the communities, the grassroots, initiatives that have been part of, solving the problem, from time. So, yeah, I will say personally, I'm just hoping that when my voice is there, then there'll be change and, will totally realize the change at a very grassroots

Cory Connors: 27:10

level. Yeah, well, you have my total support. I'm here to help you if I can. Thank you. Advertise for you or promote what you're doing. I'm in to help, think what you're talking about is exactly, what the community and the packaging world needs to understand is, these materials need to have value and then we need to help all people involved have a living wage. Is there anything else that you wanted to talk about, John, before we, we wrap this up?

John Chweya: 27:39

Yeah, I think one more thing that I would like to mention is that I've seen like a lot of, investment by industries and just like I also mentioned that this work, work that we've been doing, for quite so many years and I've seen, I've come across a lot of like investments by industries on some of the ways or some of the innovations to. Try to recover, the mess that they mo they're mostly responsible and not particularly investing more on, real empowerment and sustainable solutions that are very, rooted to the grassroots level. Yep. And, I think my appeal would be that, to the industry world, like waste speakers are one of the people that. If properly, a resource can, like if, like right now we are responsible for about 60 or more than 61% of, recycling globally. you can imagine if like with all the profits and all the, the investment and margins that the industries are making are, channeling towards, Unsustainable projects. If maybe this support, like for instance, like right now I'm very much struggling along with my networks to, to raise one track when we know that there's a lot of like, projects that industries and very big companies are investing in the tunes of billions without In any way really realizing true impact, true empowerment yet, right. there are very, sustainable solutions like for this case that we are very much struggling to, to achieve. Right? So I'm literally just appealing to. To industry and to policy makers, and to anyone listening to me in a position to make a difference that, we have solutions and the solutions are sustainable and the solutions have not been very much given, like an opportunity to show how sustainable.

Cory Connors: 29:52

Thank you, John. That's exactly right. And well said. We need to really see where our money is going, as in the community and investing in sustainability in the future. So I think you'll go get a lot of support from this and, we'll encourage everyone. So thank you again, sir. Really appreciate your wisdom.

John Chweya: 30:10

Thank you. Thank you very much, Corey. It's a real pleasure to be here and talk to you. Thank you. Thank you.