Naresh Khanna wisdom from India on Sustainable Packaging

https://www.linkedin.com/in/naresh-khanna-5578311/

https://www.linkedin.com/company/ipp-catalog-publications-p-l/

https://www.linkedin.com/company/ippo-international-packaging-press-organisation/posts/?feedView=all

Naresh Khanna, has great experience in the world of packaging and an impressive history. We are both members of the IPPO (International Packaging Press Organization) 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/cory-connors/

I'm here to help you make your packaging more sustainable! Reach out today and I'll get back to you asap.

This podcast is an independent production and the podcast production is an original work of the author. All rights of ownership and reproduction are retained—copyright 2022.

Transcript

Cory Connors: 0:00

Welcome to Sustainable Packaging with Cory Connors. I'm really excited today to introduce Nuresh Khanna. He's the editor of Packaging South Asia and the vice president of IPPO, a group that we're both members of, and I'm excited to learn your perspective, sir. So welcome to the show.

Naresh Khanna: 0:19

Thank you. It's an honor.

Cory Connors: 0:21

Thank you. Can you tell us about your background?

Naresh Khanna: 0:25

Well, I'm an Indian. I was born in Bombay in 1949. I'm what's called, one of Midnight's children who were born just after independence of the country. And, also I'm at the same age as the Baby Boomers. And it so happens that, when I was about eight or nine years old, eight and a half years old, I went to the U. S. Because my father was posted there. apart from growing up in Mumbai and New Delhi as a child, I also, grew up in New York City.

Cory Connors: 0:53

Wow. Quite a culture shock, I bet.

Naresh Khanna: 0:57

I went to one of the special high schools in New York City, which had a very good, public education system in those days. Excellent. I went to a specialized high school called Brooklyn Tech. And, later on to college there. And, when I was about 25 years old, I came back to India. I had already, been trained as a computer programmer on the IBM 360, had some, technical, background, et cetera. and I had worked as a printer also. And I was in fact, quite active during the anti war movement concerning Vietnam and also the movement for racial integration, education. although I was a foreigner and a foreign student, I was quite an active, person. Great. And, that was, that's my background. I came back to India and I, didn't know much about the country, I thought. So I, Decided to work as a printer, so I can keep my mouth shut for a while. And then, so I, then I got involved in the movement to implement Indian scripts using computers. Oh, and, one of my great, you could say gurus was John Seybold, and who pointed me out to various people, including Donald Knuth and, this gentleman at MIT who talks about artificial intelligence now, but in those days he was working on optical character recognition because he wanted to create a machine, that could read books to the blind.

Cory Connors: 2:27

Oh, that's incredible.

Naresh Khanna: 2:29

a very well known person, his name is not coming to me immediately, but, he's the person who's talking about the singularity of artificial intelligence. Anyway.

Cory Connors: 2:39

So that sure has come up recently, right? Things are changing quickly.

Naresh Khanna: 2:45

So I was involved quite a bit in the implementation of Indian scripts for computers. There was an important conference. In fact, that movement was also engendered by William Schreiber. Came from MIT to teach at one of the Indian Institutes of Technology in India, etc. And he was amazing. Yeah. So he was quite a character. He was involved in several things to do with our industry, including the ECRM typesetter, the color scanner, for which he had several Patents. Um, he influenced F. E. Arazzi greatly, apparently, which I, recently learned. So anyway, that's, so I got involved in that. And, in order to earn a living doing that, I became a consultant after two and a half years and, working in a printing press. And, and I also started a technical newsletter. And the first issue of that actually, covered some of the parameters that we had designed for the implementation of Indian scripts. And my former boss, he sent it to John Sebald, who published it on the front page of the Sebald report. And ultimately, various things happened. We implemented these technologies. I informally showed them at IPEX in 1993 and show them even at the Sebald conference. And I think San Jose. Oh, yeah. So quite

Cory Connors: 4:15

a journey from India. Yeah. Good for you. So

Naresh Khanna: 4:17

anyway, I'm saying this, so there is a kind of intermingling of, technology gurus and technology, things which, unites people around the world. And certainly was very crucial for the, for Indian society because it enabled us to use Indian scripts. as they were actually developed and not as they were linearized and romanized to some extent by the constraints of the typewriter and the other kinds of instruments because our scripts have, modifications on the top and the bottom in between conjunct characters, for us, a font is not 26 caps and 26 lowercase and nine numbers or 10 numbers. It is like 400 pieces,

Cory Connors: 4:55

right?

Naresh Khanna: 4:56

Which have to be assembled, quite, complex. for us, these things, these, the technology, particularly, the Motorola 68000 chip was a great liberation, you know. so that's what you're saying is it

Cory Connors: 5:10

allowed, it allowed computers to use the Indian language. Is that what you're saying when you say scripts?

Naresh Khanna: 5:16

Yeah, it was a graphics. It was a kind of a first graphic ship, which we saw on the Mac.

Cory Connors: 5:21

I see. Wonderful.

Naresh Khanna: 5:23

And it was a dual use ship, actually. It was quite difficult to get it into India. That's another story. Bet. In any case, so that was thing and then I continue to work as a consultant to the industry, helping it modernize and use new technology, etc. And my technical newsletter grew into a magazine, which is now almost 45 years old Indian printer and publisher. And then subsequently, I started another magazine called Packaging South Asia in 2007. And, so that's how I have by default become a kind of a packaging person. And, that's some of the background.

Cory Connors: 6:03

That's quite a career already. And, it almost feels like you're just getting started. I'm very impressed. Well done.

Naresh Khanna: 6:11

it's, it's just, Actually, the willingness to work with your hands and the willingness to learn sometimes out of manuals where technology is imported and people really don't know how to use it and you're literate and you're also willing to work with your hands. So that makes a difference. and I agree. And so that's, so that's been my good luck, Yeah. my first job

Cory Connors: 6:37

was making boxes. And, I think all of us should have a, hands on job for, in the trenches, in the production facility, at least one time in our careers.

Naresh Khanna: 6:49

Yeah. In fact, I worked in New York city on west 27th street in the spear box factory. Oh, wow. Yeah.

Cory Connors: 6:56

Was that corrugated or chipboard?

Naresh Khanna: 6:58

No, that was, it was, folding boxes, with owner used to design to set up. in a department store, like Brooks brothers or something. When you buy your suit, you put it in and he. And he was, quite a character because he would design these boxes and he would show them to various people to see if they could construct them. And he was very disappointed if somebody could construct them, And I was a student and I, we'd always come up with a solution and he was quite angry about that.

Cory Connors: 7:24

He didn't know your history. How funny.

Naresh Khanna: 7:27

So that's, that's my experience also. Yeah, so I worked in printing plants in New York City and,

Cory Connors: 7:31

packaging plants also.

Naresh Khanna: 7:33

Great.

Cory Connors: 7:33

So you're still publishing the magazines. I'm assuming they're online and printed.

Naresh Khanna: 7:39

Yeah, they're online. In fact, we started the third magazine just after the pandemic called Indy food bear. Because, food industry in India is the second largest producer of fruit and vegetable in the world. largest producer of milk in the world. so that's much bigger industry than packaging. And it turns out that, it's like a 900 billion industry, food industry in India out of the, maybe 3. 7 trillion GDP. So almost 25%. and, a lot of the packaging in India has to do with food processing and packaging. And that's the whole, goal you could say is to help save food in a way. Maximum protein to the maximum population. So it's not that packaging can save food, but it can help in the process of delivering it organically and, with full benefit. it's, that's one of the main sustainability things to get done, as we were discussing a few weeks ago. There's no point in having sustainable packaging if you can't preserve food and unfortunately a lot of food in India is wasted on the farm itself. It's not like Europe and America where food is wasted in the home, throw it out of their fridge, etc. Here the wastage takes place right at the source because it's not picked up, it's not sorted, processed. Et cetera, et cetera. And, so there is a great, so that's an interesting new development. Of course, when, after we started the magazine, the pandemic happened. So we've had to restart it. But we are very hopeful. So that's the third magazine. And then we also have a separate company, by the way, IVP Star, which is a company which continues the consulting as services. Star stands for services, training, and research. So we do training. We've done training over the years in many things, including color management. We were part of idea alliance for a while, and we do research because we were entering the 20th century 21st century, and I realized the data on the Indian industry on all the packaging printing and publishing verticals was not very good. I decided to develop that. And that has. that's a very interesting company actually. Because it also does conferences and various other community activities for the industry, you would say.

Cory Connors: 10:05

And you travel quite a bit for conferences and events, don't you?

Naresh Khanna: 10:10

Well, Corey, frankly, I have been traveling quite a bit over the years. But, I don't know if you can publish this or not, but it's very difficult to travel from India. Oh,

Cory Connors: 10:19

sure.

Naresh Khanna: 10:20

Yeah. We are quite far away from the, center of things, Sure. While things are generally, happening in America or California or, in Europe, in Germany, our industry. or even in Japan. So it's not that easy. But as years have gone by, yes, one has. It has become easier to travel. It's far away, and it's not easy to finance. Also, even My consulting work doesn't really take me there much. And, the publishing work also, but one has got invited over the years, to things like Drupal and this and that. So it's the junket. And when I started to combine that with some, other, interesting tourism, let's say. Looking around. Why not? Otherwise the travel wouldn't really be worth it. I

Cory Connors: 11:11

agree. Yeah. You have to add in some fun, when you're working hard.

Naresh Khanna: 11:16

Yeah, friends, et cetera. So I have been traveling. my wife thinks I traveled a lot, but I, but not so much, not so much recently. And certainly I have to slow down. it's ridiculous that kind of, some of the travel that they ask you to do is impossible, from India to Australia for half a day.

Cory Connors: 11:36

Yeah. Can you come here for an hour and speak and then leave? Yeah. Yeah.

Naresh Khanna: 11:41

It's not very realistic. I think it's not realistic. In fact, that's my, I would much rather that they advertise rather than give me a junkie.

Cory Connors: 11:52

Advertise for your companies or your magazines. Yeah.

Naresh Khanna: 11:55

Advertise for my magazines. revenue has always been a constraint here. our ad rates are not as high as we are in the West, et cetera. Sure. But anyway, there has been a hunger for information and for credible information. so being a credible, technical journalist. is, is quite interesting and quite rewarding.

Cory Connors: 12:15

You're doing important work and we thank you for that, for, for telling the rest of the world what's going on there in India and, giving us your perspective, as an international packaging expert. well done. Thank you.

Naresh Khanna: 12:28

I'm I only I think what's interesting is that the perspectives and the narratives have to be broadened that a lot of the biases and thinking the regulations, the insistence comes down to us from the West, and from the developed economies, and there has to be more sympathy. Or where, other people are and how they look at the world. So I, I sometimes maybe speaking out of turn, but I like to, I'd like to think that there is another way of looking at things, that there are other narratives, and that, we all need to be sensitive to each other's narratives.

Cory Connors: 13:05

Yes, such a great point. We need to be aware of where people are from and what they've experienced in their lives well here we were talking about sustainability And sustainability is a luxury and we need to be aware of that I would like to talk to you about that from your perspective in India. Have you seen any positive? changes in the way that Packaging or waste is handled

Naresh Khanna: 13:31

Oh, yes. in India, there are a surprising number of development and they are not talked about, in fact, in the West. And it's not that I think they need to be talked about because many of them are growing and developing in a fairly, up and down manner. Sometimes there's one step forward and two steps back and there are a lot of convictions. These are there everywhere, but in most societies, things are very smooth, at least on the top. And you don't see the contradictions in our, culture, the contradictions are very apparent, but I believe, many things are being done and they are being done, although there's government, which is also aware of its role and the government has launched various movements, like there's a cleanup movement for the country called Swatch Bharat, Which is, which has now been taken up by civil society and profit organizations and municipalities and, other social groups and institutions. And that is perhaps currently the largest social movement in the world. Wow. For cleaning up cities, for cleaning up waste. That's wonderful. And there are groups like Center for Science and Environment, which, 10 years ago, when this movement was launched, in fact, by the government, by the prime minister, they also simultaneously came up with, a slogan called not in my backyard remains because what happens in India is the landfills are normally where the poor people live. Sure. landfills are never where the wealthy live. And that's the same in Delhi, et cetera, where there are mountainous landfills. Very sad. So that's a big social movement, with 4, 600 cities involved. And, unfortunately in India, the people who pick up the waste They're glorified, as the informal sector really means very poor people, sometimes children who are, going through the waste. So that's not, that's something that industry should not accept. You should not accept. so you have government, you have civil society with this huge movement. Launched by the government but taken up by civil society into a large social movement, covering more than 40, 000, maybe 40, 000 towns, but 4, 600 cities. And, it's a very large, very big movement. So that is there. Then the government has got regulation, on the waste control order. It's one of the first countries that banned single use plastics. Okay. That came into in July of, 2022, 2021, in fact, July 1st, 2021. Then they have the, plastic waste management rules and the EPR, that came into force as of, Feb. that was notified in February of, 2022. This, the Amended Plastic Waste Management rules, and those are now in force. including the EPR, which means in 2025, you're going to have to account for all your, waste and plastic waste and four categories. There are three categories of producers, importers, converters. so this is all there theoretically, at least there's a portal, right? There's a portal where you're supposed to register. recently there was a discussion on how the portal is not perfect, you

Cory Connors: 16:53

know, where

Naresh Khanna: 16:54

there are many, anomalies. And of course, there's a huge, there is some contradiction between industry also, which thinks that these are just, this is something that will go away.

Cory Connors: 17:04

Yeah, just ignore it, right? Do you feel like this EPR will have any positive effect?

Naresh Khanna: 17:09

It seems to be having positive effect because, this is a situation in which I believe civil society, the consumers are ahead of the industry and, it will have some effect, but it is going to be very difficult to implement, especially as it is notified. There are many categories which are not understood. There are many, for instance, the flexible packaging industry is deeply committed to polyester and mixed laminates, which use polyester on the outside and maybe a luminized layer and then uses a The inside for the heat ceiling, right? they insist that everything is, recyclable, but by recyclable, they mean downcyclable. Yes. You can make, something else or

Cory Connors: 17:58

waste energy or something like that. Yeah.

Naresh Khanna: 18:01

there is a huge amount of things going on. Lots of recycling companies. Of course, these are all mechanical recycling companies, but very committed. Some of them who are able to supply very good quality recyclates with good track and trace. Of the sources, the methods of collection and fairly uncontaminated stuff. But as long as the price of oil is so high, it's difficult to sell recycled, to brand owners, even, global brand owners in India, like, any of the well known ones like Pepsi or Nestle or Cadbury's. They're very reluctant to pay that much more.

Cory Connors: 18:38

Cyclic. There's no incentive.

Naresh Khanna: 18:40

Yeah. but the EPR is, but many of the good brand owners, they have registered.

Cory Connors: 18:44

Good.

Naresh Khanna: 18:45

The importers of plastic have registered, it's the converters that are reluctant

Cory Connors: 18:49

and,

Naresh Khanna: 18:50

the, or let's say a little bit slow.

Cory Connors: 18:52

I am, we're experiencing the same thing here where I live in Oregon, all across the way across the other side of the world is EPR comes into effect this year. And it sounds like, so we'll be going, we'll be able to commiserate, how this experience goes.

Naresh Khanna: 19:07

So it's going to be difficult, but I've, and, the converters normally in India, they blame the government indirectly or the consumer, why isn't the consumer smarter and why are they not? handling the waste better, sorting at source, et cetera. But that's, but civil society is looking into that. and, the leadership in the civil society is very good in India. they're taking part in the international meetings, whether they are in Korea or in Latin America or in Africa, they are trying, and, but the government is very tough. It's very difficult to, in India, at least to take on the government. So you have to try and be on the right side of the government while you're an advocate and, and then there's industry. Which is, very close to government sometimes,

Cory Connors: 19:54

right? Yeah. Sometimes too close, right?

Naresh Khanna: 19:57

But I think overall, EPR will have some effect. But if you look at the real data, of the amount of plastic. Packaging that will be demanded in India, the growth curve is very high and there is very high investment by the, big oil companies in India, the refineries in producing polymer, they're not happy producing only diesel or petrol or other stuff. they are looking at the future of producing more polymer.

Cory Connors: 20:30

Yeah, well, as demand spikes, there's, there's a financial incentive to do that, right? Yeah. Niraj, thank you so much for your time, for your wisdom. what's the best way for people to get in touch with you if they want to advertise in your magazines or work with your consulting business?

Naresh Khanna: 20:49

Well, they can write to me at editor at ipbgroup. in. They can go to our websites. We have, five live websites. I'll ask you

Cory Connors: 20:59

to, maybe you could email those to me and I'll put them in the show notes so we can have those links.

Naresh Khanna: 21:05

I'll do that.

Cory Connors: 21:06

Great. Well, thank you, sir. I appreciate you and your wisdom. This has been great.

Naresh Khanna: 21:12

Okay. I hope it's useful.

Cory Connors: 21:14

Very good.