1 year of plastic! with Fred Richards (The Hive and the Chicago Brand Museum)

What was it really like to collect his families plastic for the entire year? 

What did they learn from this and how can we share it with the world to have a positive impact? 

How many lessons were learned and surprises? 

Weblinks:

https://www.facebook.com/chicagobrandmuseum

https://www.linkedin.com/company/103739032/admin/dashboard/

https://www.thehiveprinciple.com/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/fred-richards-752932/

The TFO Event:

https://www.thefutureof-conference.com/

Check out our sponsor Orora Packaging Solutions 
https://ororapackagingsolutions.com/

FREE TRIAL for Trayak 
https://ecoimpact.trayak.com/trial-registration 

https://specright.com/?utm_campaign=2024%20Influencers&utm_source=cory%20connors&utm_content=home%20page 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/cory-connors/

I'm here to help you make your packaging more sustainable! Reach out today and I'll get back to you asap.

This podcast is an independent production and the podcast production is an original work of the author. All rights of ownership and reproduction are retained—copyright 2022.

Transcript

Cory Connors: 0:31

Welcome to Sustainable Packaging with Cory Connors,

Brodie Vander Dussen: 0:34

and I'm Brodie Vander Dussen. Cory Connors: Today we have a guest of the show, Mr. Fred Richards, the co founder of The Hive and the founder and curator of the Chicago Brand Museum. How are you, sir?

Fred Richards: 0:49

Fine, thanks. Happy New Year.

Cory Connors: 0:51

Yes, thanks for being on. We really appreciate you and all you've done for the industry over the years. I'm so excited to talk about the two things that we have to talk about, and so much more.

Fred Richards: 1:03

likewise, this has been a long time coming, right?

Cory Connors: 1:05

Yes, sir. We've been talking about this for several years now.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 1:09

I'm personally really excited. I, Fred, you and I met last, I almost said last Chicago, but last November for Chicago Impact Expo. And you and Corey had a chance of speaking together on your experience of, one year, really tracking your plastic usage as your family and I have been sustainability. Minded for a while, thinking about plastic packaging, nerd, as we all know, and have, I felt like very aware of my decisions and consumer habits. but listening to you talk about your experience. Really inspired me to really take a hard look at what I was doing. And, unbeknownst to my husband, do a smaller version of what you did, but, really taking, really making conscious and intentional decisions with our money and how we spend it. And so before we get into that, I'm really excited about this conversation, but before we get into that, I want to take a step back. Can you tell Our audience a little bit about you and your role, your experience, what kind of brought you here today?

Fred Richards: 2:18

Sure. experience, I think that a lot of people be able to tell bald gray and now overweight. I've been doing this for a very long time. some years, I've cut my teeth. In the CPG world for, quite a while for some of the world's largest, CPG companies. I won't name drop, but the fortune 500 crowd, and it is a job that has afforded me one heck of a career. That is for sure. Traveled the world, worked on some of the world's largest brands, and help grow them. and I think that designing is only one part of the equation. I'm more fascinated or equally fascinated, I should say, with consumers behavior and how they think, which is, I think, why this journey was so interesting. It's very rare that I am the consumer when I get a brief from a client, right? I'm still waiting for that brief. Actually, I know that guy. I know how he thinks. I normally have to walk a mile in my client's consumer shoes first before you start designing. So that's when this challenge. accidentally showed up, thanks to our lovely friend, Evil Matt. challenge accepted, although, as you said, it consumed us. There was no two ways about it, and I'm sure we'll get into that in, in, into the project, but net for the foes that Didn't see it. I don't understand what we're about to talk about. I'm a CPG packaging designer and, branding expert, have my own, agency here in Chicago. and we, for one year as a family didn't throw any of our plastic away or as, as much as possible, we tried to save it. which sounds like a good idea at the time. but I can assure you it was not

Cory Connors: 3:50

Well done. I'm, I have so much to say. I'm so impressed with your resume. I had to actually type it out and, write it down for our speech that we gave together because you have such an impressive history in the industry and, have been one of the leaders globally for CPG companies and CPG, advisory firms or design firms. It's the kind of job that's all encompassing, and you've lived it. And, which is why I think you surrounding yourself with all of the history of the industry is so perfect. and I'm so excited to talk about both things.

Fred Richards: 4:27

Sure. I think that the simple truth about the museum that we are putting together, and we are now weeks away from being open to the public here on Michigan Avenue in Chicago, is it came out of one of those observations that you have as you're navigating your career in design that I realized in London back in the day, the design work I was working on. The impact it was going to have, the change that we were about to make, that was going to hopefully stand the test of time, but fundamental strategic decisions as well as financial decisions around the design. And that moment, I kept the old packaging. As well as the new package, not out of ego, but just out of, curiosity that one day I could put my grandkids on my knee a thing and say, look what grandpa did. it was literally that kind of moment. And then here we are some three decades later with. I don't know, actually 30, 40, 000 pieces of packaging that we're ready to display here in Chicago.

Cory Connors: 5:24

Exciting. I'm so excited to be, to get to come to your museum. We get to talk about it, get to interview you there live when it's all ready. we'll do another episode about that. Brody and I'll come over and visit. but you mentioned Evil Matt, or as we know him, Evelio Mattos. The, the inspiration, if you will, or the spark that, that started this. Can you tell us that story?

Fred Richards: 5:48

Sure. protagonist might be a better way to get us to the story. He's our

Cory Connors: 5:53

friend though. We love, he is our friend. For sure.

Fred Richards: 5:56

Um, Evelio and I go back, I don't really know how long, but I've seen him speak several times at conferences. I posted something on my LinkedIn that the museum was going to be a go. And posted some pictures of the collection as it was in those days. And he reached out and said, Hey, I'd like to know more about this. So we had a little podcast moment like we're doing right now. it was a lot of fun. Of course, it's Evelio what's not to love. And in the conversation, I came to the realization that in the collection, there's very little plastic. And that led to a deeper conversation around why. And, of course, manufacturing at the time, et cetera. But most of it is either tin, steel, glass or cardboard, sometimes wood. But for the most part, that's the way it is. And in the conversation, the back and forth between the two of us about the role of being sustainable, because That's the thing. And they're not just standing the test of time because the material is sustainable. They're standing the test time because the designs become so iconic and collectible and beautiful, et cetera, et cetera. So people keep these things and are they keeping modern packaging? Probably not. and that's when the role of plastic really came up. So as a follow up to the. podcast with Evelio , I wrote a little article about it. Thank you Evelio for the opportunity, et cetera. And in there, I said, wouldn't it be interesting if somebody could, quantify that and lo and behold in public on social media, Evelio called me out and said, I think that you're the person that should do it back down. so that's exactly what we did. the. One of the learning curves I could give everybody is that if you're going to say yes to a challenge like that, it's best to tell your family and your wife first. That was definitely one of the mistakes I made. No two ways about it. because I think as we'll get into the numbers and some of the background here very quickly. Within the first month, I would say we realized the mountain that we were about to climb and I didn't want to back down on the challenge. I felt that I had to deliver on the promise. but there were some tears and frustration as the year went on. No two ways about it. I'm not going to tell you who the frustration was and where the tears were, but that's how it worked.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 8:09

I want to commend you for taking on the challenge because I think that's, we often on social media or LinkedIn, even is there's, it's getting a little snippy, in my opinion, people back and forth of you should do it or like these people who feel very passionately about something and they, it can turn into something different. And so 1, thank you for doing this so that we can all learn from an experience like this and, but I'm curious as you went along, like you said that's a good lesson to tell your spouse. And I agree with that. Is, was there anything that you found to be unexpected, surprising, past the sheer volume of it? Hidden plastic, something like that.

Fred Richards: 8:51

I think going into it, not that we're tree huggers or anything like that, we try and do our bit. We've got a blue recycled garbage bin, of course, we're doing all those things. I think we were. average sustainable consumer, however you want to refer to that. But I think that we felt there was a, we had peace of mind that we were at least doing our bit every week or every month, right? choosing brown paper bags over plastic at the grocery store, just those little things that you do to make your conscience feel good. I think that very quickly, Decisions that we thought we'd be making, we hadn't been making plastic cutlery for as an example, plastic drinking straws, even if you're taking the box on your deliveries, it's still showing up and just keeping that within the first month, the only new full deliveries a month and you've already got a stack of cutlery that's like this, and then once we started to realize that, yeah, And the O's started to sink in. It was just how pervasive plastic is in our lives. it's everywhere all of the time. You can't function without it. so that became really hard. And I think what you said about the challenge, challenge accepted. I agree with you. I think we need to have more conversation about a lot of things in the middle, right? We might be able to disagree, but let's have a conversation in the middle. I think that's one of the problems. and Avilio certainly, while it was, there was jest in it, it was a challenge at the same time, I think that. It became a bit toxic, actually, after a while, and I can't think of a better word for it because it did create tension and it create tension because there were points in the journey where we wanted to change our consumer habits in the store, even if it meant spending more choosing glass over plastic, for example, but we had to stick to it and even the grocery store, which, of course, it's replaced blockbuster for the place that you go and have a family argument now, right? is, We found ourselves getting really frustrated just doing basic weekly growth because we knew it was bad. We knew it was wrong, but it's Oh, there's another six months of having to buy this product. Not necessarily the brand, but in certain categories, it was hard for that reason. so I think. The realization of how bad in the air quotes could not all plastic is bad. We want, we wanted to recognize that we recognize that in the presentation as well. We're not saying all plastic is bad, but what I would say average Joe consumer out there thinks that it is. And the lack of education, I think it is absolutely ginormous because even we learned a great deal during the exercise. And then when, Mikey showed up. thank you for introducing us to him, but that was a revelation. he lived in our house, he went through it for over a week with us. and I even think he learned a lot that week. because we would all catch each other out throwing something away because it becomes so automatic. Even the last month, the last week of the last month of doing it where we could see the light at the end of the tunnel, we could actually feel it. Feel the warmth of the light coming on us. You'd still be fishing plastic out of the garbage can. It just becomes so automatic. And I think that's the one thing I would say for anybody that does want to do this. I know you're trying a little version, is in full disclosure. I think we could have been far more scientific about our approach. because I know we lost a lot, and things like bread ties. Plastic bags that the sliced cheese came in things that we just I know it's plastic and everyone should know it's plastic It's not that difficult, but you're not thinking about it that way detergent bottles shampoo bottles Juice bottles the things that are big and bulky They're easy to identify but once you go to that second third fourth level of plastic in your lives The oh, it really is like a car crash I just thought of something, actually, because I think the demonstration would be really good.

Cory Connors: 12:40

I love that.

Fred Richards: 12:41

So the thing about the, the data that Mikey helped us with, I think is one thing, but it doesn't really put it into context. And I think in the presentation that we made at Pack Expo, Corey and I don't think it puts into context either. We created these, this deck of cards that, called out most of them of the major data. If you, there you go. Perfect. We, gave all the data by either category or by brand. here's a great example, and it's not a good or bad example, but we consume 41 of these in a year, which kind of makes some sense, right? 52 weeks in the year. It's almost one a week that we're using. so it, it makes sense, but I don't think there's any. Idea of the sense of scale, and I really mean sense of scale because when a room at your home is starting to fill up literally a room, the cubic square, right? Because we're not crushing anything down. We're trying to keep everything in its original state. The volume is incredible. So I'm I think it would be a good idea to demonstrate Yeah, One of the 20 something boxes that we still have, because we still haven't thrown it away because we know there's value in it. We just don't know what to do with it yet. We're waiting for somebody. So if anybody's watching, we're open to ideas, this'll give you an idea of a volume and be the understanding of how much plastic. And I just picked one of the boxes at random. here we go. This is one of the boxes. 2023. Okay. I think the best way to demonstrate it is to demonstrate it.

Speaker: 14:20

So, we have kept all of the boxes, as you can see here, P23. That means Package Deserted Packaging Plastics Project 2023. All the boxes are this size. Um, I'm not exactly sure how many we have, but they will fill a standard car garage, that is for sure. And we have kept it all. This will give you an idea of the scale of how much plastic one family kept one year. Second, first of all, I'll give you a peek inside. No judgment, of course, of how much sour cream apparently we use. Here you go. This is one box. And I think the best way to demonstrate. Volume is to actually student. So think about that many more and you'll give you an idea of the scale of the problem. it's, it's a monster monster problem. And like I said, I think we've 30 plus of those boxes for sure. And smaller ones as well. still sitting here. it's, you know, things that you just.

Speaker 2: 15:47

They say every toothbrush you've ever bought still exists, you know, that that's a daunting thing to think about. Thank you for making a mess of your office for us. We, uh, we appreciate you and we're honored to be friends with you.

Speaker: 16:02

Likewise, my friends be safe. Thank you.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 16:04

Wow. I didn't even think about hangers. Wow.

Fred Richards: 16:09

One box. right? And it's things that you're not really thinking about, like a pack of screws. There's a cascade. I'm just picking things up at random. Plastic hangers. It's a surprise. I don't even know where I don't even buying these and yet they're still showing up, as an example, cake trays. it's really scary when you dig into it and you think about it in terms of that kind of volume. So we did, I think, almost in the end, fill a regular size car garage with plastic with boxes of that size. Now, if you do the, if you do the math. This is where it really started to get scary when wonderful Mikey showed up. We are not an average family in Chicago. We're two and a half, basically. My wife and I, we have a six year old. We have no pets. So I think that we under index in terms of consumption. We over index in plastic toys, for example, but we under index periods. So we were trying to figure out some math about, how do you multiply this? How bad is the problem? So the way that we did it in the end was Chicago homes. Versus Chicago people and the numbers and I know that you both have the card and that they are the numbers there, we collected just shy of 4000 pieces of plastic individual pieces, But total plastic, it was 7, 000, almost 8, 000 pieces because caps and bottles, of course, and wraps all get, separated out. But that led to over eight and a half billion pieces for Chicago alone in a calendar year. When you, when we just did the multiplier. Where, my question is, where is that going? And if consumers could see that plastic mountain, then, you know, I think people would wake up.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 18:26

I think there's an interesting, Consumer mindset shift that I believe needs to happen in that when we're looking at buying something We're buying the product in the package. We have to be thinking that we're buying both things Because if you're like, I'm just buying the milk I'm not buying the milk plus the bottle whether that's glass or plastic or sometimes powdered like I'm buying the milk plus package, product plus package. Therefore, when I'm done with the product, the package is still something that I spent money on. I invested, I brought it into my home, it is a part of my daily life. What do I do with that? I think we then treat that package when it's done, you know. maybe we care more about it getting recycled. Maybe we care more about what kind it is. we, if I want to reuse the jar of my pasta sauce because I paid for it, I want to get the usage out of it. I think that there's a shift in mindset that's needed in order to push. It's not just, recycle, which, yes. And we need to be thinking through what value we put in packaging as consumers.

Fred Richards: 19:33

I couldn't agree more. And I think there's two parts to that in terms of helping solve it. This is nothing new. And that's the scary part of it, I think, is what happens to the education. component, there's a wonderful example in the depression. I can't recall the brand off the top of my head, but the bags of rice and flour were printed with patterns, beautiful patterns, because the owner of the brand recognized that women were using the empty cloth sacks to make clothing out of them. what is just a beautiful little story, right? There's no shame in it. That's what you're supposed to do, et cetera, et cetera. And that leads me to the second part is where is the brand's responsibility here? for educating. Why can't there be something on the side of the package? Did you know, or you should, or you could, or why don't you, think about using this in a different way? We've all grown up with it. That's why a lot of this. packaging survives in the museum. Is grandma filled that tin with buttons or, whatever, and it had that and you recognize it for that reason, right? And you almost associate it with that collectability. If I think about quality street as an example from the UK. You'd always go to it as a child, hoping that it'd be full of chocolates this time. You'd open it and it'd be full of mom's sewing kit or something, right? If that's what it was being repurposed for. But isn't that a beautiful thing that you also knew that as well, that when that tin enters the home, to your point, it's going to be reused, whatever. And I think we've lost sight of a lot of those things. And that's the thing I worry about. And I think that leads back to my previous answer, which is one of the ahas it was really sad, really sad. Again, not all plastic is bad. That's not what we're saying. But with the demonstration we've just made, holy moly, we've got to do better.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 21:24

I think, too, I read something that, a new hobby of even this generation, my generation, Gen Z, is consumerism. It's not, no longer a hobby of, crafting, or sports, or, I don't even know. But I think there is a trend of this, oh, I bought this, or I found this on TikTok shop, or I bought, went to TJ Maxx, and I went to Target, and Target told me what to buy. And I'm not saying that. there's anything inherently wrong with any of that, but the level that we're consuming things and Buying things, buying more and less quality across the board, in my opinion, is something that is dangerous and really sad and contributes to the problems that we're having. If you bought less and more higher quality things, they do live on. They become the tin that, my grandma uses that I now use and, I don't know.

Fred Richards: 22:16

I think that,

Brodie Vander Dussen: 22:16

it's interesting.

Fred Richards: 22:17

It is interesting. It, a silly example would be the COVID, blip if you will. And we still use it as an example as a good and bad, but when COVID happened and we were told to stay at home, I did buy a lot of wine. I just did,

Cory Connors: 22:36

we all did,

Fred Richards: 22:36

it's still there a lot of it because we didn't drink it all because we went back to work and we were responsible, et cetera. But if you think about that as a spike, I would say the same thing is true of bathroom tissue and bleach and the other things. It's still there. So it's leveled off our consumption in that respect. How many of the brands, how many of the categories of victim of that were also, as we all know people during COVID. Did a lot of reflection, the kind of job they want, how they're consuming, how much money they think they need to earn, lifestyle choices, health choices, et cetera, et cetera. and some people decided to take lesser jobs with less money, less stress, et cetera. They were making these films. I'm wondering how much of the plastic conversation was in there either overtly or subconsciously as part of the decisions they were making about the lifestyle choices they were going to be making. I'd love, there's got to be some data out there somewhere that would say, actually, it went up because of this or down because of that.

Cory Connors: 23:38

I agree. said a lot of younger people and even older people, are making decisions based on the environment now, based on the impact that they will have. And also based on how much positive impact they think they will have in this new career. So you're exactly right. I hear it all the time, I spoke at an event for college students in the packaging industry and every single one of them said the same thing to me. I want to work at a place that has a positive impact. I want to have a positive impact. I want to make a difference. I want to help the planet and the world. And I thought it was brilliant. But I wanted to shout out Mikey Pasciuto from Scrapp. Because he is an incredible person and he's a friend of ours and I know he's a close friend of yours to Fred and His, the amount of work he did, and you did, and your wife did, and your daughter did, is commendable. And I think we should celebrate you and thank you for that, because it's affected me. It's affected my purchasing decisions, and I just, only saw it from a distance, and saw it as, we presented it to the audience at Pack EXPO last year. But I think everybody can take away the fact that, basically, every family fills a garage full of, Plastic junk every year, and that's really impactful. That's a lot of material to think about, people know how big their garages or a garage for one car is. if we thought about it that way, and I know you said it's, you're even less and there's larger families, but if everybody thought about it in that sense, I think people would reconsider their consumerism.

Fred Richards: 25:21

Yeah, we talked about it and we had some questions at PacExpo when you and I were presenting it is what is the wake up call? And we used tobacco as the example in the presentation. If you remember, nobody really knows what the tipping point was, but there was one. And then once consumers figured out finally what was wrong, then the reaction was pretty quick and very dramatic. But it still took governments a long time to play catch up to it because, of course, taxes play a role. My question is, having been through this now, is when will it happen for plastic or will it be sugar first? What is the next one? Because you, you can see it starting to happen. And then what is the impact of that? Not just for, health and wealth of a bit of a safer planet, but also business. Because will the good plastic be affected by the bad plastic, as an example, I don't think there's such a thing as good tobacco, but maybe there is. I'm not so sure. But, there is good sugars, if you will. And natural sugars. I'm really wondering what that is, because there's been enough hints for the average consumer to know. So why has that trigger not taken place yet? is it because the sense of it is so large and so overwhelming that they can't comprehend it? Like how large is the, the universe or the ocean of plastic in the pacific, right? If it's if I can't see it and I can't equate it, then it's not a problem. But I can see grandpa smoking himself to death, right? That I can see. so how do we join these two things up? Because even Today with folks that are skeptical about global warming and the science, et cetera, which I understand why they're skeptical, but surely to goodness, all you need to do is go and stand outside for a while and figure it out for yourself. Right? but apparently that doesn't seem to be working. so that's one of the other reasons for doing it really is to prove it to ourselves. And With that demonstration to physically show it, and I could go or two more boxes out, right? Because they're right here. For those that don't believe how many we have. and I think that's probably one of the next steps, actually, not that we would want to do this again. I know we don't actually. No, my wife doesn't because I know that if we did do it again, that it would be more because we'd be far more scientific about it. I know where the holes are. So it would be a garage plus that's for sure. but I guess that's our gift to what you said earlier about not fighting about it on, on, on social media. We want to give it as a gift, which is why we gave the cards out, et cetera. Who's going to take it to the next level. Now, who wants the data? How do we use it? How do we make it more consumer facing? Who really cares? Why do they care? we want it to be used for good, not evil. and we're sitting here waiting. and I guess that's one of the reasons for doing the, doing this conversation with you is there's somebody out there like my conversation with the video and say, hold on a minute. You have what? Yeah, we have all of it. And Mike, none of it would have been able to be made sense of without Mikey. So I'll build on what you said earlier. He was. You get to this point where you think you're going crazy and I think we were going crazy and he showed up like Superman. He really did. And my daughter loved him. She's Oh, when's uncle Mikey coming again? We never want to see that man ever again. But when he started dying, I think even Mikey was shocked. I think he was, Oh, somebody actually did this and here it all is. And he weighed every single, he did every single item, very methodical. and then he had to build more spreadsheets because the data just kept climbing. So I guess that's my challenge to everybody that's going to be watching this or wants to share it to somebody is what next, what do we do with it? How do we make it bigger? How do we make it better? And how do we make it consumer facing? Not to pick a fight, but to make people aware.

Cory Connors: 29:22

How do we display it so it has an impact? And we do have a few more of these decks of cards available. If you're listening, reach out to us and we'll send them to subscribers of the podcast and maybe people that are fans of Fred's. But you're exactly right. How do we show the world Why this was so impactful, because they need to see it in a way that shakes them a little bit by the shoulders and says, Hey, you're a little bit out of control here. we need to rein it back. We're not saying no plastic. We're just saying, be aware of it and maybe make smarter decisions and you can have a huge impact, a huge positive change.

Fred Richards: 30:08

Yeah, for sure. I

Brodie Vander Dussen: 30:09

think one of the, my favorite parts working in sustainable packaging or just packaging and marketing brand in general is that, yes, we're faced with a really big challenge every day, right? How do we make something have a big impact in someone's life personally, still keeping that brand, still bringing that presence and also having a less impact on the planet. And that's a huge challenge. And how many creative opportunities come out of this to solve that challenge, right? we talked about, the tin, your grandma's tin, that still has that logo on there. That's a brand that you pick because you know that it can be used. there's an opportunity there to make your packaging. worth something. We're not, I'm not advocating for all, in every situation, less packaging or going away from packaging. Like we need it. It's necessary on so many levels, but you have an opportunity with what materials you pick, how thick it is, like the shape and form and function of it. There's so much creativity in there that I think is untapped and can be, flexed in a lot of different ways that has a less impact on the planet and still has a huge impact when it comes to brand.

Fred Richards: 31:21

I'm fascinated. Again, I don't know if this falls into one of the amendments, freedom of speech or whatever, but the on some packages, we mandate nutrition facts, et cetera. This has to be labeled in a certain way to tell you surely to goodness that there's a parallel path to that as well in terms of brownie points. You win if you buy in a certain category and you buy it a certain way and it's disposed of in a certain way. carbon credits. Yeah, But I think again, that's too elevated for consumers to understand. You've got to dumb it down somewhat. That's a horrible way to say it, but you do. and the same is true of materials. Like you said, one of the things I talked to my clients about, and Corey has seen the presentation, is writing better briefs that Engulf all of the senses, especially if you're talking about consumer packaged goods, how heavy is it? How do you open it? How do you open it a second and third and fourth time? What does it smell of when you open it? Does that smell tell you eat me or does it? Does it tell you to pour it on your hair for those of us lucky enough to have hair or not do any of those things because it's toxic, right? All of those things play a role. And I refer to that as the opening ceremony. But one of the things I've never really talked about is the disposal ceremony. And I think that, and again, I don't want to blame brands or organize or companies, but they do have a role to play as does the consumer. And if we're going to use language, consumer language, like I love this brand, right? You hear consumer sales, I'm all I couldn't write because we all have those little brands that we go to for comfort, et cetera, then surely to goodness, that's an opportunity for the business owners to talk to the consumers about that and say, how can we love each other more? Because surely to goodness, if it's a sustainable relationship and sustainable beyond just a transaction of money, then everybody's a winner and you could set brand standard examples of how to behave for sustainable future. And I don't see anybody, I don't see any brands having those kinds of conversations. I certainly don't see them in a brief. And when I talk to my clients, which I think is really sad, really sad to even get them to understand one of the senses in addition to the brief beyond what it looks like. What does this brand sound like when I open it? sometimes they just look at you like you're crazy. Like, why does that matter? I'm like, for some brands, it's really important. The same as taste and smell is or touch the old adage of a Coca Cola bottle. you can identify it with your eyes closed. It's out of their brand vernacular. what about the other things?

Brodie Vander Dussen: 34:00

I

Cory Connors: 34:00

loved how you explained it in your presentation at the last hive event of it, it becomes a emotional connection and it becomes, the sound and the feel that on your hand of the bubbles coming out, of the, the soda or whatever this feel or sense of comfort that you're getting from whatever item that you're used to. the opening of the Snickers bar, this is exciting. I'm excited to eat this because I'm hungry and I need the food right away. And it's here. you're exactly right. it's very intimate experience packaging, is, and it's the last frontier,

Fred Richards: 34:38

the individual, the one that you came to Corey, when we blindfold the individual in the crowd and we get them to identify first by smell. not only could they identify brands, but they could, oh, sorry, entire categories, but then they could identify brands within categories just by smell alone. Right. So why are those things not woven into the brief, but it's got to go further. Like I said, these briefs have got to be far deeper because if we know that consumers can do X, then they're going to be able to do Y. They just will. And the, the old adage, the consumer isn't a moron. She's your wife. Right.

Cory Connors: 35:15

And she's brilliant. And she, and she understands, what she wants.

Fred Richards: 35:20

Exactly.

Cory Connors: 35:21

said, sir. what's the best way to get in touch with you, Fred? We'll put a bunch of links down in the show notes so people can reach out. Yeah,

Fred Richards: 35:28

I think that the link, the links would be fine for sure. we're on the usual social media platforms. We have a Facebook account for the museum, a Facebook account for the Hive Principal, and the same thing on LinkedIn. We post for the museum, by the way, every single day we post a package. Love those. From the collection, with, where it was made, etc. There's sometimes the history. We've just passed our first year of doing that. So there's 365 images plus to go and take a look at with 39,526 to go. we've got plenty of runway for years to Fred,

Cory Connors: 36:02

you need to live to 130 years old. Is that okay?? Can we arrange that?

Fred Richards: 36:07

No, nobody wants that.. Nobody. Nobody. That is for sure. And yeah, and we host the next event in March 11th, 12th, 13th of March here in Chicago. This will be the biggest one we've done. Normally they're just an evening or late afternoon into evening. and this is the first time it'll be a paid event. We're trying something new this time. Normally it's by invitation only. but this will be the 10th year that we've been doing it. We used to refer to it as fight club for branding back in the day because of course everybody knows the first rule of fight club is you don't talk about fight club. and that was by invitation only, like I said, and then COVID hit. So we had to go behind enemy lines and it became even more covert. But so many people enjoyed it in terms of the kinds of conversations that we were having. And it's the unconference, if you will. We don't want people sitting in stadium style, seating in a hotel, where a wedding was the day before. We just not interested in that kind of conversation or people doing sales pitches. We want real proper dialogue. We really want to make connections. so the one we're hosting in March, it will be on the hive principle website. You can get a link to it. It's the future of Dot, dot, and then this time it's going to be designed. And the question we're asking is design dead. I think there's a lot of questions about the design industry right now, in terms of where it has failed us and where it is being successful and where it is thriving, the question is with all of the challenges and pressures on the design industry, including things like sustainability and materials, what does the future look like? Because I think you could argue. optimism, pessimism. The glass definitely looks half full right now. it's difficult. So we'll be asking those questions as well.

Cory Connors: 37:44

Well said. I'm excited. And for anybody listening, make sure you go to this event. It's incredible. It's an overwhelming experience in the best way. Thank you again, Fred. we'll do another episode about the museum soon and can't wait to see you in Chicago.

Fred Richards: 38:00

Pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 38:02

Thanks Fred.