CEO Tom Szaky (Terracycle and Loop)

https://www.terracycle.com/en-US/
https://exploreloop.com/en/

One of the best episodes we have produced! 

How has Terracycle innovated in the sustainable packaging space for so many years? 
What is the future of Terracycle and recycling the difficult to recycle? 

We are so thankful to have CEO Tom Szaky back on this show. 

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Transcript

Cory Connors: 0:31

Welcome to Sustainable Packaging with Cory Connors.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 0:35

And Brodie Vander Dussen. Cory Connors: We are Tom Szaky , our friend of the show, a true icon in the industry, the CEO of TerraCycle on today again. And, we've got some interesting topics today to cover, some new developments in the USA. Have, I've made some changes to the way we look at packaging and sustainability. And I think, Tom and I met in Europe and, just said, we got to do another show to catch up on all this. So Brody, right to you. yeah. Want to echo that. Thank you. Welcome back to the show. for those who maybe haven't heard the episodes you've been on before. for Can you share a little bit about yourself? What you do? for those who are watching on YouTube, a little bit about even that your background, what you guys do over at Loop and TerraCycle.

Tom Szaky: 1:19

sure. so as a, I guess the best way to look at us at TerraCycle is we are a circular economy waste management company. and what we try to do is we try to offer services in the circular economy space that traditional waste management companies don't do today. And so for that, we first start around with our nonprofit on how we can eliminate high risk litter. So we run, for example, in Bangkok, Thailand's largest river cleanup system, really trying to focus on how do we get high risk litter to not end up in oceans and so on. Then what TerraCycle is really known for as a brand above that is our recycling division, where we create national recycling solutions now in 20 countries around the world to collect and recycle those product and package forms that are not municipally. recyclable. So think everything from recycling close to a billion cigarette butts to dirty diapers to everything as simple as a baby food pouch. Then we focus on how do we get unique waste streams back into products so they don't just go into downstream applications, but ideally back closed loop, whether it's with pilot the world's first pen from use pens or with asics a shoe made from shoes, and so on and so forth. Then above that, under the loop brand, we focus on reuse. So how do we move from. Disposable packaging where the best end of life is perhaps recycling to reusable packaging where it could just be cleaned, refilled and off it goes. And this is the type of work TerraCycle does now for over 20 years around the world.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 2:39

Wow, not small problems. You guys are working to fix, huh?

Cory Connors: 2:43

no,

Tom Szaky: 2:43

it's, yeah,

Cory Connors: 2:44

it's a daunting task and you've taken it on and we appreciate you. That's why we look up to you and appreciate what you're doing. And, we had a really fascinating discussion in Europe and Amsterdam at the sustainable packaging summit, which you and I both spoke at, you had a really exciting topic that you covered, but, We were talking about how this new administration in the USA may change some things, and there's a lot of concern that it may set some of the initiatives back. but I think you had a really positive outlook on it, and I want to talk about that. Can you tell us your thoughts on that?

Tom Szaky: 3:19

What's really interesting, and especially if you're going to compare now Europe to North America, or Europe to the U. S. in more specific, is There was a bit more similarity in the legislative environment, over the Biden administration between, the U. S. and Europe, basically moving forward on more regulation, and mandating effectively circular economy practices. We saw during the Biden administration, the rollout of EPR starting in the U. S. state by state and so on. What's really interesting now is we're now going into a Trump administration, where, of course, it is hyper deregulation, is going to occur. And there generally isn't the same, I'll say politely, the same tone on environment. it's, in many cases, climate denying, climate change denying, and so on and so forth. On the other side in Europe, we're seeing hyper regulation coming, with big new regulations around circular economy and sustainability, the Green New Deal, PPRW, many other such examples. Then we have the global overlay of what may happen. in the I. N. C. Work at the United Nations, knowing the chance of it being ratified in the U. S. Is probably absolutely zero while potentially ratification in Europe as I compare those two regions is potentially much higher. And that generally on the surface seems horrible, and I think there is truth to that. I don't want to say I'm going to talk about the silver lining. The main meat and potatoes of this is it's not going to be good because environment does need, mandatory regulation. There's absolutely no question. So I'm hopeful in the U. S. Some states can lead the way as California has done and can really push the country into new outputs and new regulations, even if it's not done at a federal level. I was talking before talking with Cory in Amsterdam a few days before I was giving a town hall to our team in Budapest and Hungary and they were asking like, should we be concerned about, the new regime in the U. S. And so we mapped out our growth over the past, eight years of Obama, then four years of Trump and four years of Biden. Here's what was interesting. TerraCycle is an entirely voluntary system, right? This is relying on actors voluntarily taking responsibility over the, the, the externality of the waste of their production. And it was interesting during Obama, we've grown for 22 years in a row. And then, during Obama, it was five to 15 percent growth per annum. But then during Trump. We, almost quadrupled in size. we went from about 20 million in revenue to close to 70 million in revenue by the end, and then in Biden, it slowed down again to about five to 10 percent growth. And it was so interesting. I was like, wait a minute for a voluntary system. Isn't it interesting that the inverse is true? And the big insight that came was, and we're seeing this in Europe, right? when big regulation comes. Companies really scale back on voluntary activity because they have a lot of effort they need to put into first understanding the regulation. That's the two years before regulation, everything slows down. And then two years after it's implemented, it slows down because they have to get their feet under themselves. And so if you take a regulatory moment occurring and add plus minus two years for a total of four during that four year period, it is incredibly slow. And we see this and manifested in, in, in what we're seeing in Europe. And then the inverse is true when, companies see that the government will do nothing or do even negative like deregulate, dare I say, like eliminate the EPA or some, horrible decisions. Then they go, wait a minute. We don't just look at our business as U. S. for four years. We are a global company looking with much longer horizons. We are going to be the ones who have to voluntarily act because no one else will. And so voluntary action goes up in a very measurable way. And there's something interesting with the silver lining there. So, the punchline to this is not to say it's a good thing, because regulation is critically important. And I don't think anyone's really pleased with, you Busan for the INC. We need this regulatory, work to occur. But If you want to create, movement, especially in the U S especially what's coming over the next four years. There's a lot of potential appetite for voluntary action, especially from companies that have a horizon beyond one country and beyond four years.

Cory Connors: 7:08

Yeah, really well said. And I think you're right. Everyone, well, in our industry, our green collar friends are very, disappointed. by these, recent developments in administration and, that debacle in Korea, it's time to make some positive changes and to take some positive actions. And I think when you're exactly right, when you say that companies see that, the governments and the municipalities and the administrations and the NGOs are not. coming together the way we hoped. So let's take the action on our own. Yeah. And so we'll set, this is an exciting development and let's hope that it continues. And then soon the next, agreement, the actual agreement comes to fruition.

Tom Szaky: 7:54

Yeah. And I think, look in every, we always talk about, what action should be taken. Is it the consumer voting better with their money? Is it, regulation? Is it voluntary action? the answer is all of the above and the way we try to react as a company who operates in all these countries. So we see different tensions always in different times, hype, Europe. We're facing hyper regulation, us big deregulation is this is how the chess pieces are moving. And how do you adapt? So, for example, as a voluntary, responsibility, service like TerraCycle, in a environment of, of hyper deregulation in the U. S., we think, there's a big boost that comes, as we just already talked about, but what do you do in a regulation, in a hyper regulation environment where we hear producers saying, Oh, my God, I am Super concerned about doing anything voluntary in the environmental space because my entire sustainability department has become a paperwork department. Just complying with regulation is what all of our staff have been directed to. So we have no bandwidth. And we're very scared that, will be fined. or, by making a green claim or sued by making a green claim. So we're seeing in Europe, especially huge retreat from almost any voluntary action. How do you work in that environment? And there I think it's about, really thinking about what is the other value that your service and sustainability can bring to that company beyond just the sustainability credentials itself? A good way to test for this, by the way, is by You have a sustainability offering. This is whether in packaging or, climate, diversity. It doesn't matter. Can it sustain itself if you removed all of the sustainability benefit from it? That's a really interesting test to test for. Is it proving other forms of value? A simple example in recycling, just so this is not esoteric, would be if a store does in store recycling, beyond the environmental benefit of all that stuff that they're collecting being recycled, they're also getting a lot of new foot traffic. So can that new foot traffic justify the investment into the program if you divorce the entire sustainability credentials to zero? That starts becoming interesting ways to deal with these types of questions.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 9:57

I love that litmus test almost, the standard of if it's truly workable, sustainable, in the long run, is it achievable? I think, I've never really thought about it like that. And I think that's, our team and a lot of friends and people in our space, right? Have a lot of. Concern over this next couple of years and what this looks like just for the industry for our planet. and I think there's been an overall tone of hope lost. Yeah. And I think that's a really interesting point where it's not. I love the shift of like, okay, just because they're not telling us to do it anymore. It doesn't mean that we're not going to do it anymore. Right? If the point of it is to protect the planet and to advance sustainability and each of our sectors and each of our roles, each of our small ways, big ways, and every power that we have. Why are we waiting for the government to tell us to do it or not? Like, regardless and that litmus test of it's not just about sustainability, right? It's not just because we're being told we have to do it. It's not even just because it's good for the planet and it's the right thing to do, it's So much bigger and so much more and has so much more potential for foot traffic for profit for reputation for, I could name a bunch of things. I'm sure we all could. So I think that's I really like that litmus test. And I think that's hopefully something to grab onto, as we're sitting in this. Waiting for what?

Tom Szaky: 11:24

What could be? Well, and I think so. So to build on what you're saying, I think one of the key challenges I said again, doesn't matter what space you are, what externality you're trying to get, solve for in the world, because there's so many issues. It could be water quality, air quality, garbage, like in my space again, it could be, climate change. It could be loss of species diversity. there's so many issues, whatever you're fighting for. The first thing I would just build on what you said. If you said like I could list off many. Do the exercise, list them all because every time you find that, hey, if the company invests in saving the rainforest, it increases their ability to, I am making up an example, increases their ability to recruit people and retain people. Well, maybe the HR department has a bucket of money that they spend on that. That they can then divert because everyone wants to do good things than benign things, right? And really take effort to map all those things out and tease them out because that's how you can get funding. The other key point, because all this stuff costs money, in the end, why are companies not internalizing they have to pay for them. So you need money flow. It's the everything, right? The other key thing. Is that it protects against what in many cases I've seen sustainably projects, are very challenged with is they rely on those very special people in the organization who disproportionately care. And what happens is everyone changes their seats every two, three years. And if you have protected for this idea of there's more measurable ROI, even if you discounted the entire purpose of the program, the sustainability bit to zero, then if someone comes in who. It's a fine person, but only cares about PNL and, and classic KPIs, you're still protected. And then these programs can gain weight and longevity because everything takes time and growing investment to really scale and get out of these sort of embryonic pilot modes. And this is really important. Like we were talking, just to change the, the angle, but tangentially, in Amsterdam about reuse, and we have spent, gosh, close to now 45 million on loop, to try to get it to really scale. And we've had a lot of very important learnings. And. it hasn't worked everywhere. We've done pilots in the U. S. Canada, Australia, Japan, France, U. K. And we're seeing scale come in France and Japan. And the real question was why? Right? And what we found is what's really necessary is three things to exist. Here's where regulation is very important. Risk of regulation, critical. Without that, it can't go. Also subsidy, from typically, in France, it's from the P. R. O. S. In Japan, it's from the Tokyo government, but some form of fiscal support. Mhm. That really is challenged, by the way, in a hyper deregulated environment. So reuse is going to have major headwind in the US, in this, unless it comes from a state level, which is hard in this case, federal is going to be easier. But then to this point, a really commercially committed, retailer. Not a pilot committed retailer. And this is what's important here is the stakeholders are different, right? In a pilot committed retailer, it's going to be sustainability, R and D, learning departments, and generally, unfortunately, small budget departments that are going to be involved and they can stand up pilots. There's no question. And their KPIs will be getting a lot of fame for it, like some publicity and learnings. While if you engage the commercial folks, they're only going to care about, let's scale this or not. Right. And getting those folks in what they're going to really care about are very different functions than what the other stakeholders are going to care about. And the more we can build muscle and sustainability against these things, the higher chance for scale and longevity to occur. Yeah.

Cory Connors: 15:18

We just interviewed, well said, Tom. We just interviewed, the CEO of, AORA Mexico. his name is Noor, and it's a new makeup brand, and they have a reusable, 100 percent recyclable and reusable packaging, system that is totally unique. And he said, let's be honest, the reason we made it was because it was the right thing to do. It's also really beautiful. Yeah. and it's like you said, it's going to, their customers are buying it because it's beautiful and it's stunning and it sits on their, wherever they put on their makeup or they bring it when they go places and they show it off to their friends. But the reason it will persist and it will last is because. It's beautiful and the product is amazing and it's also sustainable and that's the mindset that needs to happen for this to work in perpetuity. Is that kind of what you're saying?

Tom Szaky: 16:19

Yes, I think that's a great example of if you divorce sustainability, would it still stand on its own to two legs, right? I think that's a really important test to look at again in any of these sustainability projects. And it's one of the things that we, Learned early in our history. It's painful lesson, right? Because we kept getting pilots that wouldn't, that would then go away when the stakeholder moved on, say 15 years ago, and by Putting that test in that allowed for effectively the growth we've seen, and continue to see, I think what is interesting is this idea of, of launching this type of system, as you described in the previous, that you chatted about in your previous interview is really Easy if you're a new company, cause you can get born into it. If you will. One of the interesting sort of, lessons we learned cause we, when we started loop for reuse, that was also a great sort of concept, right? That we can move packaging from being a cog or a cost of goods sold to an asset. And as such, you can do incredible upgrades to packaging, like what we did with hog and DOS or tide or cascade or all these really amazing, almost museum quality, sort of packaging pieces. What we found is you can get those into pilot, but scaling them is very hard because now you're filling equipment changes, your master cartons change, your everything changes. And one of the really interesting lessons in now successfully scaling loop in France, which is now in hundreds of supermarkets, over 200 products, same in Japan is actually simplicity to the big supply chain is everything. So it's about how do you change next to nothing? But enable reuse. And then once the volume is there, right? then I think this idea of breakthrough packaging becomes easy to commercialize because you're saying to the producer, Hey, out of the gate, the purchase orders are going to be big, so you might as well invest in all the, all the kit that makes that package actually come to life versus just the physical package form itself. So it's very interesting on the contrast with how do you do this? If you are starting as a startup. Where you can really set everything the way you want from scratch, or how are you trying to do this? If you're infusing it into a big established organization, I think they're the key lesson we learned again, painfully is. It's actually how do you do the biggest sustainability shift with the least amount of physical change and physical change is across everything the, the physical pack, the production, the, all the way down to can the Master Carton and be the same.

Cory Connors: 18:37

I love the example of the Heinz ketchup bottle, where it's the same glass. It's the same, stuff. it's, it's an icon in the world. People know, you see it across the room, you know that's ketchup, and it's from Heinz, and it's delicious, and you have to hit it a certain way to get the ketchup out, but all you had to do was change the adhesive, and now, all of a sudden, this packaging that we all have come to love, and it's in our homes, and it's on restaurant, tables. Is reusable.

Tom Szaky: 19:06

This is right. And by the way, if you want to do a huge shift on reuse, it's interesting that like 20 percent of the packaging that is in the supermarket today is technically reusable. Think easy examples are your wine bottle, your hot sauce bottle, the, as you say, Corey, like the Kraft Heinz ketchup bottle and many examples. Those can withstand the rigor of cleaning and drying and being refilled. It's close to about 20%. some categories is the entire category, like whiskeys and spirits. every one of those bottles, whether it's vodka or scotch, can certainly be cleaned and refilled. They're durable enough. And it goes into so many, any jar of pickles, and so on and so forth. And then in the ones that are unintuitive, like, like polymers. The heavier polymers like a laundry detergent bottle, it can do it. Now, if it's a thinner polymer, like a shampoo bottle, the only change that would really need to come into effect is a slight increase of the wall thickness. Like an interesting example in Loop in France is Coke was first shipping to us Coca Cola in glass bottles. Now it's just thicker PET. I think the wall thickness is up, I don't know exact percentage, but it is a thicker PET than the regular version, but it can withstand cleaning and reuse. And the beautiful thing is every other aspect of the supply chain, filling cartons, labels, everything. Is identical. This is again like the key thing is, the way we try to think and in fact, what we're speaking about today is all about not the academics of sustainability, but about how do you like do it today in the environment you're in today. Whether you're in a new Trump world in the U. S. Whether you're in a hyper regulated environment in Europe, whether you are in a big company where everything is established or you're in a startup where you can. Everything is a white board and you can dream up anything you want. I think what we need to do, because it goes to the point, Brody, you're saying is we have to act no matter what the circumstances are. And the circumstances will evolve. They will consistently change probably faster than we're comfortable with, right? I think to really succeed, to help bring some, slowdown of the environmental trauma we're seeing and ideally, reverse it at some point. It's all about like what happens now. And I think this is, Really important also, to how we applaud or critique anything that's out there, right? I think one of the challenges beyond the regulatory environment that corporates will say is they are so scared of, of the critique that will come, of being, yelled at for greenwashing, from the media. And then being sued by, activist organizations on the litigious front. And what happens if we yell at a child too much, I say child because of its small actions, at the beginning, they're just never going to try. Right. And so it's also important as we look at concepts, we can't just applaud everything because then a lot of bad things will occur, but we need to be measured. so that we can seduce this voluntary action to occur.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 21:48

I think it's like

Tom Szaky: 21:49

getting. It's like getting sorry to interrupt. It's like getting a kid to eat their vegetables. That's what voluntary sustainability is. And how do you get a kid to eat their vegetables? First, you do lots of seduction, right?

Cory Connors: 21:58

Then you apply it a little

Tom Szaky: 21:59

bit. Then you do less seduction, and at some point it hopefully has become table stakes. Or table broccoli.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 22:06

I love that. I think that's the quote sustainability will be table broccoli.

Tom Szaky: 22:10

There you go.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 22:11

I think I love what you're the just a touch on what you were saying. I think sustainability can be as complicated and as simple as we make it. I think it. it's a for better for worse. Sustainability in each of these sectors is a massive problem and it is also little changes. I think that there is a breadth of options we have available to us and. We could change we could choose to change the entire line. We could choose to change every aspect of our packaging of our product of our logistics of our shipping of our consumers. But that's often I feel like I have found, not needed, and often I don't think are as successful as small changes like changing the wall thickness. Like, I think, but I think it takes taking a step back too, and really looking at everything, and doing a lot of research, and talking to a lot of people before you get into it. Before you make some of these decisions or talking to the right people. Right? I think we could we could do whatever we want Right, but unless you have the right people in the room We're not gonna get very far either and I think we have to do something the status quo is no longer Okay, we can't we cannot stay as we are we're watching this massive crisis happen. We have to change we have to act But, like you said, it can't be on the back of the one person who really cares and really understands. And I think one of the takeaways I found the morning after the election was, I made it my mission next four years. I'm going to be really good at the sustainability pitch. I'm going to be really good at communicating what's really happening and what, why I care a lot, because I don't want to be the only person in the room that cares the most anymore. I has to be my friends. It has to be my family. It has to be the, my coworkers, my team members, my neighbors, the people in the grocery line with me looking at what I'm buying. It can't just be me anymore. and I think that it doesn't have to be this big thing and how we communicate the small changes and the little acts, I think are going to make a way bigger difference when we no longer have regulations or government, pushes or advocacy, if maybe not, maybe we will, but maybe not. so I'm choosing to be hopeful of what's possible. It may not be on the bigger scale that I was expecting. But I think that there's a lot to be done on the small scale too, that I'm excited for.

Tom Szaky: 24:33

And I think hope is critical because hope is the first step of anything. we have to maintain that. and it's just the chessboard changed a bit. The, the way the pieces move have changed a bit. And I think it's an important closing point that you say on really making, like when you think about, and this is especially the case in circular economy, is about understanding the stakeholders. And how do they move? Not how you hope they will move, but how they actually move. Right. And this is, the most important advice I can give to anyone thinking about circularity on their package is talk to the companies that will actually, at the end of the day, be responsible for whether your package gets recycled, composted, reused, whatever it may be, and ask them not what they can do. What they will do or want to do and play into that, because in many cases, we're very focused on technically can something happen. And technically, almost anything can happen, right? I could ask you to jump out the window right now. And technically, you could do it. But if you're, in a tall building, there's certainly no way you would do it. And I think this is really important as we engage All of the stakeholders in this dialogue.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 25:36

I love that. It has to be the whole supply chain, right? It has to be from the entire life cycle of that product or packaging. It can't just be the people who are making the package and then we make it. And then we give it to consumers. We have statistics on what they can and probably will do or probably won't do. It has to be one step further into people who are actually collecting that and what do they do with it? what's an. Not only like, I liked what you said, not only what's available and what they can do today, but what they're willing to do and what they're willing to work with you in order to do, because that is the potential. It's not what is happening or miss we're missing that piece. I think.

Cory Connors: 26:12

It's

Tom Szaky: 26:12

absolutely right,

Cory Connors: 26:14

Tom. I want to commend you for your efforts and for your leadership in the industry. you've really stuck your neck out there many times. And like you said, learn the hard lessons the hard way. and, what you're teaching us about re usability and, recycling is going to change the future. And, so this is, why we're so excited to have you on and hear from you. But I'd like to ask you for just a couple tips. what can, what can a consumer do? what can a company do to move the needle to be more sustainable?

Tom Szaky: 26:50

Yeah, I think two things. So if we take the first question, the consumer and the biggest advice I would have to the consumer, instead of a specific one, is just think about when you shop the following, whatever you buy, two more will appear tomorrow. One to replace what you bought, one to signify the trend and whatever you don't buy. One less will appear tomorrow. There's nothing to replace, but there is something to signify the trend. Will you shop differently? And then to the company. I think the big in, in for 22 years, sitting and all sorts of internal meetings, multi stakeholder meetings around how to enable circularity, whether it's through recycling the great ability, like compostability or reusability, probably the 3 major vectors, the actors that are always missing. Are the companies who actually do it. All right. And what we need to be asking those companies, the composters, the, the reuse companies or the actual recyclers themselves is not what is technically possible, but what will happen in a vacuum when no one is looking and not to design things into the hope of what will come tomorrow. But what exists today. The real masterclass is designed into something less than what exists today. And then you're going to be in a really good spot, but we tend to be designing into what we hope may come tomorrow. And the waste management is a slow moving industry. It is actually the least innovative industry per dollar of revenue it enjoys. So that's okay. It's just how that chess piece moves. And we need to accept and empathize with how chess pieces move, not to try to move them in how we hope they move because they never will.

Cory Connors: 28:23

That's it. That's it. We got to take those steps and be innovative and take the risks and try new things. And, think, take a step back. I liked how you said that. Take a step back and look, what are you doing? Why? And this is something I run into in my 27 years in the packaging industry is why are you doing that? Well, that's how we've always done it, Corey. Well, what if you tried these two things? And, What if that could not only save you money, but it'd make you more sustainable. Really? Yeah, and your customers would like it better, And your workers in the warehouse would really be thankful to not have to do this anymore. And oftentimes, it's a surprise. That's right. And I

Brodie Vander Dussen: 29:02

love that you, what you said too. I think there's marrying the line of like advocating and championing innovation, regardless of what the status quo is, and also emphasizing with what they can do and what they can't do. if they don't have the funds or they don't have the ability to innovate in that way. Okay, let's take a step back, pivot. I think that it's. It's marrying the advocacy plus emphasizing, like you said, I really loved that, where the chess pieces with how they're going to move and what they're capable of doing. And also still, what if, I love the, This conversation has been amazing and I'm really, I'm feeling way more hopeful right now than before this conversation thinking about what's coming in, politically, but I'm excited even to think about how the shift in my perspective of my work of and it's sustainable, right? Doing all of these things. And it's sustainable. It is no longer because it's sustainable, which I care obviously deeply about, but taking that emotion out too, and really focusing on what's sustainable in the long run, what will continue and what will still be profitable and efficient. And is also sustainable. I think that has to be a shift that we look at too, which I thought was a really great tip. So thank you for that.

Tom Szaky: 30:17

Absolutely.

Cory Connors: 30:18

So, Tom, thank you again. What's the best way for people to get in touch with you when they want to register their products for loop or for TerraCycle? Sure.

Tom Szaky: 30:26

Sure. Absolutely. I'm on LinkedIn. so just look my name up, and, love to hear from you on any topic that you're interested in. So, yeah, please be in touch or you can check out our website. We have a way to get in touch with us there too, but, please either, either fashion, we'd love to hear. Thank you, sir. Appreciate it. Thank you guys.