2025 Predictions! Brodie Vander Dussen and Cory Connors

What is the future of sustainable packaging? 

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Transcript

Cory Connors: 0:31

Welcome to Sustainable Packaging with Cory Connors,

Brodie Vander Dussen: 0:34

and I'm Brodie Vander Dussen, Cory Connors: and today Happy 2025. Happy New Year.

Cory Connors: 0:42

Here we go. This is very exciting. I feel totally ridiculous, but I think that's how life is sometimes, right?

Brodie Vander Dussen: 0:51

For those who are listening, we are reigning in the new year, bringing in the new year with some very fun, appropriate glasses. We're trading in what has become our brand of the glasses. I can't see that well with the new fun ones, but my normal ones back on. But we wanted to have a fun new year. I'm excited for 2025. Are you excited?

Cory Connors: 1:15

I'm excited. This is, if you recall, many companies were making predictions for 2025 or saying by 2025, we will be this. We will have accomplished this goal. for our packaging sustainability movement, and as you well know, most of those goals did not come to fruition and but I think that's something we need to talk about, for as we predict what will happen next, I think companies we'll make fewer predictions. Because they realize now that, people are listening and we are holding you, liable for these, predictions that you make and we want you to be responsible for the planet and,

Brodie Vander Dussen: 1:58

yeah, And I think it's on one end, I commend companies for saying by 2025, here's a really big goal we're going to achieve. I think that's great. I don't think that we should move away from that just because, we got to 2025 and we're not there yet. a lot of companies are missing these goals that they said that they were going to do or have rolled them back to maybe 2025, but they're not the same goals that they initially committed to, but I don't think that, I don't think that we should. cancel them just yet because of that. I think that these are the things that we need, To be able to have companies be able to risk and be vulnerable and say, this is what we want to do and we're committed to it. I also think, so I'm holding both. I also think that we have to hold them to that commitment as well, because if. they roll back or can't make their goals, these big companies, if they can't hit their goals, how are we expecting everyone else to? Very

Cory Connors: 2:59

true. Yeah. With the resources that they have, you would think they would be much more likely to hit the goals and accomplish the things that they set out to.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 3:09

Yeah.

Cory Connors: 3:09

But let's focus on progress over perfection.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 3:12

Absolutely. Absolutely. And,

Cory Connors: 3:14

like you said, this is the most brilliant thing Brody's ever said, and she's said a lot of brilliant things. Sustainability is like marketing. There's no end point. You're not all of a sudden sustainable. And I want to thank you for teaching me that, because I think that is something I talk about all the time. We are all on a very long timeline here. And the goal is improvement every year. And so we can't beat ourselves up too much if we,

Brodie Vander Dussen: 3:43

came

Cory Connors: 3:43

up a little bit short.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 3:45

Absolutely. And I think we just have to keep putting one foot in front of the other, being more sustainable than we were yesterday. And eventually, we'll turn this thing around.

Cory Connors: 3:56

Yes. We're going to make a bunch of predictions today, and, and then we're going to talk about them a little bit. Brody, I'll give you the honors. You go first, my friend. What prediction do you see for 2025 and beyond in sustainable packaging?

Brodie Vander Dussen: 4:10

My first prediction for 2025 is I think that there will be a rise in packaging that is intentionally designed for the senses. And this, I mean by touch and smell and sound. Sound's an easy one that we already have an example of. The example that came to mind was Snapple. When you twist off that top, you hear that pop. And that is a Snapple bottle to me. And but that packaging is unique to Snapple themselves. And I know that they've had some design changes recently, but I think that the senses connect humans and are just livelihood to packaging in a way. that I think is untapped right now. So I'm excited to see more of that. I think, I would, there's a little research on too, like what's out there. Curious. There is a, A plastic bag company that I will not mention because they have textured their plastic to feel like paper or to feel like natural sustainable materials. Now this is a monomaterial bag, so I'm not saying that's that it's not sustainable, but I think it's really dangerous to make plastic feel like paper and it, because of the confusion that it will cause for consumers, for how they dispose of that packaging that I think, especially in the rise of paperization, I really think that we need to be careful about what that is. But it is interesting, the touch. Being a part of packaging, that I haven't really seen before. And I think there's a lot of opportunities still. So still cool, but we just have to be careful and mindful of what that looks like. The last thing I think that kind of go to this, packaging intentionally designed for the senses is smell. There's a company out of the UK that adds fragrance to their packaging in order to, Enhance the unboxing experience really touches that sense of smell. It adds to, if you have a food product that's wrapped, for sanitation and for preservation, and you can't really smell it, but it's part of the experience. It's part of your brand, that this company will add fragrance to your packaging, which I think is really important. Really cool. Hey, who knows what that could be? That could be a very interesting experience, but I think it's an interesting concept that we haven't seen before, but I think we'll see more in 2025.

Cory Connors: 6:38

Packaging is a very intimate experience. you literally are interacting with it all day long and you watch people and they'll open their drink without even looking at it anymore. They'll, they have this routine, this muscle memory. And, which is why people revolt when packaging gets changed. Sometimes, even something simple as the graphics, on the Tropicana containers, their sales, they lost 3 million, in that, in a month, but with that to just absolutely terrible, Important how we treat packaging with respect because consumers expect that it will be consistent. you can tell a Coca Cola bottle from across the room and that's international, even in different languages behind me, I have a Coca Cola can that I got on my trip to China and you can't read what it says, but you can tell what it is. As an English speaking person. And to me, that's incredible, but this can also go the wrong way. Like you said, you're making it feel like paper. People are going to recycle it. That's going to screw up the recycling stream. sun chips. Remember there. Compostable bags. They were so loud that, people complained and stopped buying their chips. Even though this was way ahead of their time, having a compostable chip bag that you could toss in the yard debris in the backyard. so we need to be aware of. Sounds and smells and feel, and hopefully not taste, but, that's, you never know with packaging, right? That's great. I

Brodie Vander Dussen: 8:20

totally agree. I think there's, but even with that SunChips example, like we were talking about, it has to be progress over perfection. my hope was that they continue to innovate and, there's a smaller challenge than it is. sound so

Cory Connors: 8:34

yes, I've got notes. I'm excited for my first prediction here.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 8:38

tell me all about it

Cory Connors: 8:39

I think that packaging will become more and more made out of waste materials.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 8:45

Ooh I like that

Cory Connors: 8:48

or should I say Formally waste materials so things that used to be a problem, things that used to be a challenge to discard, difficult to recycle or use in a different way. Things like Woola, who we interviewed recently, Grasikraft from Ranpak , this is made, this is a paper made partially from, grass rock paper, wheat straw packaging has been done successfully by Corona in their six pack carriers. I think that. The more that we can use this quote unquote, unused fibers, the better.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 9:29

I think it really speaks to the circular economy, right? We're putting it back into, to be into more things and then it could continue to live on and on in these cycles. I think another example, I love that prediction. I think another example that comes to mind is Releaf paper.

Cory Connors: 9:45

Yes.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 9:45

paper made out of leaves that have fallen there. They've, previous podcast guests, but.

Cory Connors: 9:52

And we're, we'll see them at Paris packaging week. very excited to announce them or to work with them. Yeah, you're exactly right. This, what a brilliant idea, not having to cut down a tree and getting paper from it. Like, I'm all for sustainable forestry, but this to me is incredibly sustainable forestry, like a new level.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 10:15

Absolutely.

Cory Connors: 10:16

but then now they have a full on production facility in France and it's, Process. And I told him to come to America where I live. there are so many leaves that could be in business for eternity. It's, I have a 200 year old oak tree in my backyard. they could, make truckloads of paper out of it.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 10:35

I'll come over and set a factory up in your garage. It'll be perfect.

Cory Connors: 10:38

This is my new line of work. Yes. Okay, next prediction, Brody. Okay,

Brodie Vander Dussen: 10:42

so talking about the circular economy, my next prediction is packaging designed to be upcycled. So you talked about upcycle materials that get into packaging. I'm talking about packaging that is designed for another life post protecting product or shipping product or, whatever the original use cases. Some examples I've seen, Currently, but I think will become bigger are, boxes that have outlines of cartoons or characters that turn into coloring activities for kids. there was a really great example I saw from at SPC of boxes that are like a ship in your own container box for toys and you un, unseal it, essentially, and then you could refold it backwards. And it becomes either a car wash for your car toys, or it becomes a racetrack or a train track that you can lay out and it lives on past just shipping that product, which I think is really cool. I've seen ones that you could turn into like speakers. Plug your phone in. It works with the natural echo to amplify the sound. I think it's amazing. We have to find a way to keep it going.

Cory Connors: 12:02

I love it. I and I remember receiving 1 of those diaper boxes when our kids were in diapers and opening it up and seeing Mickey and Minnie Mouse in there and our kids going, whoa, this what is this and giving them a box of crayons and saying, Go crazy, draw all over it. And them being so excited that they could have an art project. it's so disappointing when you open a box and you're done with it. And, I think you're exactly right. We need to find ways to reuse or repurpose or another life for this packaging item or material. Yeah. Reusable. Upcycling, downcycling, whatever we're calling it.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 12:44

yeah.

Cory Connors: 12:45

and I think

Brodie Vander Dussen: 12:46

too, great opportunity for brands. Like you just said, Disney had an opportunity to put Minnie and Mickey on the inside of this package that, if you're printing on the inside anyways, this is an opportunity to. we talked about this packaging is an intimate experience. It is part of our daily lives. Like your package, your products already in their house. They already bought it. They already have it. How do we be intentional about every piece in it in order to really highlight and illustrate your brand and make it an experience for your customers? It's an opportunity that I think. we could continue to innovate on,

Cory Connors: 13:19

I agree. And, there should be a category at the Pinto awards for that, packaging that can be repurposed into something else that we'll talk to the team in Paris. Okay. Next prediction. I think that companies will continue to struggle with their data for reporting of EPR. this is a fear of many brands and companies. They are scared. What is EPR? How do we report it? I listened in on the Circular Action Alliance call today. Honestly, if you don't have your data figured out with a company like SpecRight or in your reporting dialed in with a company like Lorax, EPI, you need to urgently take care of this now as a brand, as a company. What do you think, Brody?

Brodie Vander Dussen: 14:12

Big sigh because it's a big problem. I think people are intimidated and scared for a reason. It's not something that we've had to do in the past. And so if. If you've been scrappy with your data or have scrappy small teams, we hear you. We understand. And there are partners out there that can help if you do have a scrappy team and are looking at this, like, feels like a maverick of a wave saying, I don't, I can't do this. this is a lot of need to hire a full time team. you're not alone. A lot of companies, I think, feel like that. But, because you're not alone, you're, there are people out there that can help, and I think this is gonna be a big year for data.

Cory Connors: 15:23

Ooh, I like that. That's it. 2025, the year of data. Because, Oregon starts in, as, June or July. Yeah. this is the first one in America, and, there are many in Europe and other countries. This is hitting home for us Americans and North Americans and Canada has some and there's more and more coming more and more states, have laws coming. There's, I believe there's 33 states with, potential EPR laws coming. So that's going to be a lot of states. We need to be ready for this. there's five, for sure. And, 33 more that's, that's most of them.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 16:01

Yeah, and I think even EPR here in the states, but, we talked a lot about plastic treaty and the potential plastics ban globally. So what does that look like? we have to be paying attention to these things, even if we feel like that's not going to be signed into action here in the states, still going to affect us. And affect our decisions when we come to packaging.

Cory Connors: 16:21

yeah, I'm excited for our, episode with the circular action alliance to talk to them about how to sign up, who should sign up. Why do you sign up? Absolutely. They're a nonprofit organization. I didn't know that until, he filled out his form for this, podcast. So we'll see. What does that mean? How does that look?

Brodie Vander Dussen: 16:41

Yeah, absolutely. and what is, I'm curious what it's like to be the, holding both the brands on one side of, and then the government on the other, how that's, and, really trying to bring both together to save the planet.

Cory Connors: 16:54

Got

Brodie Vander Dussen: 16:54

a big job on their hands.

Cory Connors: 16:56

Daunting for sure. So what's your next prediction, Brody?

Brodie Vander Dussen: 17:00

one of the things I had was a big push for company progress. this is in light of what we were talking about, we've talked to other people from previous episodes of what it looks like in a Trump administration for the sustainability industry. And. As much as I think there's lots of what ifs and could be is going on. I think that we'll see companies saying no matter what we still care about this and pushing forward. And, I'm hoping that a lot of people, a lot of companies and brands come together and say, this is what we want. And it doesn't matter who's enforcing it or not enforcing it, but this still matters. And we still care and push forward regardless.

Cory Connors: 17:44

Yes, I love that. It's almost a sense of rebellion, like, even if our leadership says this, we're still going to do what we think is right, and we're going to stick to this plan.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 17:55

And I think too, it's not just because it's the right thing to do. I wish that was enough to push companies to make progress and brands to make progress. It is also a good business decision in a lot of ways. It's really helps with growth. especially as we're seeing this big wave of Gen Z consumers and just a change in mindset and, Priorities,

Cory Connors: 18:17

brand

Brodie Vander Dussen: 18:18

loyalty, morals from this next generation, what they care about and not just gen Z that's millennials, but also gen alpha is getting, they're getting older and they have, lunch money. And, they're starting to, they're watching whether we want to realize that or not, they're watching what are these generations and what. What mom buys, what dad buys, and they're a generation to be watched and prepared for because they're coming and they come in swinging hard.

Cory Connors: 18:50

They are, they're, incredibly intelligent. They have, all the resources at their fingertips, literally with the cell phone, they can research anything immediately. back when I was a kid, I don't want to sound like the old guy in the room, but, if you wanted to find out information, you had to look at an encyclopedia, or ask someone else. now it's at the tip of their fingers or right at their thumbs, just, what do you want to look up in there? I'm constantly being fact checked at family gatherings by my younger, in laws and cousins and it's like, okay. I you can't say you can't say anything wrong anymore, and that's maybe that's okay. Maybe that's fun, but I propose Family gatherings with no cell phones moving forward

Brodie Vander Dussen: 19:38

I hope we could find a medium because I think some of my favorite family gatherings are stories that No way are any of those possible, possibly impossible. Some of these stories, but they're still my favorite. And so I hope that we can find a medium of letting grandpa say whatever he wants in reason. Yeah.

Cory Connors: 19:57

Yeah. let aunt Susie tell that story again. Yeah.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 20:00

Yep, tell me about it. That was, yeah,

Cory Connors: 20:04

next prediction. I see the grocery store becoming a recycling hub.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 20:11

Oh,

Cory Connors: 20:13

I'm excited

Brodie Vander Dussen: 20:13

about that one. Yeah,

Cory Connors: 20:14

we've seen this with TerraCycle. We've seen this with store drop off bags for years, low density polyethylene materials, soft plastics, as they're commonly known, you can bring to your grocery store and they will recycle them, hopefully, but I see that with companies like D6 and TerraCycle. having these huge, containers available and even encouraging them financially, to drop off things like, PET trays and, all other kinds of materials too.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 20:45

I love that. I'm excited about that. I think we're seeing a sprinkle of that maybe. With refill stations and things like that, because to me, refill still fits within reuse and drop off and that recycling hub. but I also hope to maybe extend on that. I hope to see, grocery delivery, Instacart, those things of people coming to people's homes. Maybe there's some way that they could partner with companies like, What's the one in Oregon with your doorstep?

Cory Connors: 21:17

Oh, Ridwell.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 21:19

Yes.

Cory Connors: 21:19

Yeah.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 21:19

I'm hoping that they can partner with companies like Ridwell or other TerraCycle places that can be

Cory Connors: 21:25

Recyclops yeah. Recyclops.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 21:27

Exactly. Places that could, Do that. They're just missing. Maybe the infrastructure to re, recollect all of those materials. how do we get into existing infrastructures rather than recreating the wheel? Because it's not needed in a lot of ways. We just got to talk to the right people.

Cory Connors: 21:44

Oh, that's brilliant. Yes. These people need to connect and, and partner up and say, okay, we're going to reuse these reusable totes and, we're all going to use them. They're all going to be the same. And, here's how we finance that through extended producer responsibility laws or whatever the case may be. Absolutely. That's, there's a lot of legs there. That's really brilliant.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 22:06

we've talked a bit about the. This is maybe a candidate from your prediction, but we've talked a lot about, the incentive to recycle cans and bottles and things like that. And in those states, and the lack of. increase and matching inflation and other costs of living increases, that it's just not worth it to a lot of people in those states anymore. if we could fix that and have the infrastructure to, to make it easy for consumers, I think We would get back all of that material that we need in order to feed this recycled content minimums across the board. yeah, it's

Cory Connors: 22:49

I agree. The states that have the deposit return scheme have recycling rates that are more than double. The states that don't and this delta is huge. it's not just five percent to ten percent. It's it's thirty percent to seventy percent. it's more than double it's massive numbers and especially for oregon where we had the first deposit return scheme In 1977 or I think something like that. it was 5 cents. Now it's 10 cents, which is, like you said, it should increase, and the reason it's 10 cents is because the rates aren't high enough. The way that we wrote the law, it says once the rates get above a certain or below a certain amount, we increase it to encourage it. And so that's, it's such a simple thing, right? You pay a little bit upfront. But then it encourages that money back and then it funds itself. The program funds itself. I think it's, it should be a national program.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 23:51

I agree. I agree. Maybe that's a hopeful 2025 or maybe by 2030.

Cory Connors: 23:56

Yeah, we'll play this in 2030 and we'll say, yeah, we were right. Yeah.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 24:01

I hope so.

Cory Connors: 24:03

Yeah. All right. We've got time for maybe one or two more.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 24:08

Okay. my next 1, maybe my last 1. Is I think that sustainability messaging, whether that's recycle me, made out of post consumer recycled content or compostable or any of these sustainability messaging marketing messages will be prime real estate in packaging. Example that I found was Pringles, their new recyclable can, paper tube is what it says. that's a good fourth Or 5th of their whole tube together is big and bold that it says it's recyclable. or just promoting their recycling efforts or their sustainability efforts, whether or not it actually does get recycled. I think is that. I'm expecting to see more of

Cory Connors: 24:56

I agree and it will have to it will have to be true. Yes. whatever. There's no agreed. No more room for greenwashing. There's no more room for half truths. There's no more room for, technically gen general generalities, or this is biodegradable. Yeah. so is everything, that this, these words are gonna be outlawed. it's, you're gonna have to say, this is recyclable curbside, or this is made from 100% recycled. Whatever. and you're exactly right. It will become standard, I hope. It will become, it'll become very visible. I think, I'd like to expand on that. I think what we'll also see is more instructions. on pack. This is what you do with this material now. and, I'm recyclable. Okay? Put me in the bin. Or, take me back to the grocery store. I am,

Brodie Vander Dussen: 25:53

I Take the lid off and then recycle.

Cory Connors: 25:55

Yes, like you've seen on beverage containers. Put the lid on. recycle me with whatever the case may be, even tethered caps like in Amsterdam and Europe. And, yeah, exactly. So yeah, on label on pack more information, how to recycle labels, things like that. really taking off this year.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 26:17

Yeah, and I even think in that nuance of that, like technically recyclable, we know that curbside recycling is not available to everyone. And what does that look like to be able to say it's curbside recyclable? if most of the country doesn't have curbside recycling, is it? Cause not everyone's Is it recyclable? So I think we have to Not only do we have to be very intentional with the messaging and, have the data and information back it up. I think this was also this will also spur innovation and new growth in the infrastructure that is currently not supporting. a lot of these metrics,

Cory Connors: 26:58

50 million us households don't even have access to curbside recycling. 50 million households. that's more, that's, 150 million people that's a massive number. and it's such a simple thing to do, but you're right. we need to let, remind those people that this is possible or there, there are other ways. rather than just your bin at the curb, to gather and bring back your materials. Um, we'll see what happens, but I have. I'm very optimistic. I hope you are.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 27:32

I have hope. Yeah, that

Cory Connors: 27:36

was it. Yeah, unpack. I think unpack labeling will be more intense. It'll be more insightful. It will be more visible. And frankly, packaging is the final frontier of advertising and that's how I've always looked at it. Like, it's the final way to get. in front of somebody's eyes, you're in like, you talked about, yeah, you talked about how it's, it's an experience where touch and taste and feel and smell and all of these things that, that we can work with to make people feel, something. About your product, right?

Brodie Vander Dussen: 28:13

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think everyone wants to feel like the hero in their own story, the main character. And so how do we make packaging support that make them the hero, make them the best version of themselves. I think there's an opportunity to do that. I also think there's an opportunity to really negatively affect people. Packaging can be frustrating, but I think if you do it well, it can enhance lives. it can really help people.

Cory Connors: 28:41

Yes. Well said my friend. thank you all for listening. cheers to 2025. Very exciting. Yeah. Thank you for listening. Thank you for interacting and stay tuned for a big year.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 28:54

Absolutely. Looking forward to it.