CNS Media Editor Louis Gore-Langton

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Transcript

Cory Connors: 0:31

Welcome to Sustainable Packaging with Cory Connors

Brodie Vander Dussen: 0:34

and Brodie Vander Dussen. We're

Cory Connors: 0:36

really excited today to have another friend in the business, in the, I guess you would say the press, fellow press member, Louis Gore Lauten. He's the editor at CNS Media Group. Welcome, sir. Thanks for having me. I'm

Brodie Vander Dussen: 0:51

really excited. I'm really excited about, this episode this morning. I, in another life, am the editor of our sustainably packaged magazine. And so I'm really excited to talk editor to editor, press to press, a little bit more with Louie. Can you tell us a little bit more about what's inspired your journey to packaging and specifically sustainable packaging?

Louis Gore-Laugton: 1:13

Yeah, sure. I joined CNS media, just over four years ago. And, we cover the packaging industry, the food industry, the nutrition industry, and the personal care industry. yeah, we're a trade publication and, we ride across all of those industries, but, when I joined, I was originally assigned to packaging insights and I'd never written about the industry before. so when I first started, I thought, you couldn't have a more boring, subject. And then, over time, I became more and more aware of how, how connected it is to our everyday lives, social issues, political issues. And, of course, since I started, and 2 years ago became editor, it's become a much bigger part of, the public conversation. and it's become a much bigger issue and, there's been a tremendous amount of change and flux within the industry. I think more than, than almost any other in the time since I started. The inspiration really, I really picked up as, as we went along.

Cory Connors: 2:14

Yeah, great point. it was awesome to see you at the PAC Expo, and we met in the press room, and it was interesting to see the press room changing, I noticed, over the last few years. It seems to be a lot, more diverse, a lot more, young people. A lot more people doing podcasts and blogs and things like that. Media seems to be changing dramatically. have you experienced that too?

Louis Gore-Laugton: 2:41

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And also in the mainstream media, it's it seems to be becoming, a much, a much bigger topic and people are much more aware of the fact that It's not as boring as it might seem in this industry about cardboard boxes. We never made for, intriguing stories or investigations, but actually, it's now, it's everywhere and I think people are much more aware of the fact that, just how closely tied it is. To, environmental issues and but also to political issues and, to a lot of the policy changes and developments that we see in government. And, yeah, it's reflected on the front page, but also, as you say, in, there's all sorts of different types of media now getting into it.

Cory Connors: 3:27

Are there, in your role in these interviews that you're doing, are you seeing any trends that are really exciting to you in the world of sustainable packaging?

Louis Gore-Laugton: 3:36

I think probably the biggest trend, that I've seen since I started. Well, maybe there's 2 is the, the divide between paper and plastic and that is probably the biggest thing that, that we've covered and that's run through everything and then also, the difference between single use and reusable. I think those 2 divides are really the main. is really the backbone of most of the sustainability conversation around packaging. and that, again, that's also reflected in all of the kind of policy developments, what's going on this week, in Korea with the INC5. Most of this stuff comes back to it and then, of course, with reuse, this is also a question about reduction in materials. And all of that kind of feeds into product design. And into what the industry is, is calling on governments to do and what the governments are calling on businesses.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 4:34

When I first started in the packaging industry too, I was, came about it in a roundabout way as a lot of us do and. I just was struck with this idea that the packaging is invisible industry. I think the average person, the average consumer would not think about it past what you do with it when you're done with the product or how you throw it away or where he goes or, maybe the apple box because everyone thinks that's really cool. but it's. Everywhere. You cannot go a single day without touching it. You cannot go a single day without it really affecting your life. Poor design, great design. it affects our lives every day and it's this invisible, to most, I would say, industry, but it is. Amazing and opportunities. I'm stoked to work in this industry now because there's just so much I see as potential. I'm curious, we talk about sustainability a lot on this podcast. what do you think the conversation has been around sustainability? How has it evolved? and in this evolution, where do you see it going next?

Louis Gore-Laugton: 5:40

Yeah, I agree totally with what you say that it seemed to be this kind of invisible industry and, people, our best saw it as a sort of packaging is just as the secondary, product attached to other products that we care about, like food, but they are products in themselves and they're much more, they dictate a lot of our everyday behaviors in much more profound ways than most products do. And it's attached to every single other type of product. So I think, yeah, it's becoming which people are waking up to that. And also to the fact that a lot of the sustainability concerns that people have, for example, with plastics. That this is actually very, closely tied to packaging, like a company like Exxon Mobil, people know this is 1 of the world's biggest petrochemical companies, but 80 percent of the company's growth is from single use plastics production alone. So it's things like that. And over the next 20 years, I think it's estimated that 40 percent of the global. Petrochemical production will be going into that. And, yeah, we go to war for these resources, there's lots of without being too dramatic about it. I think when issues like that come up. People aren't thinking about plastic bottles or sushi boxes or whatever. they're thinking about other things and I think that. The connection that packaging has, it's not just plastics. To other issues, as I said. It's becoming a much bigger, people are becoming much more aware of it. in terms of what's going to happen in the next 5 or 10 years. Sustainability wise, I think that much of what's happening now. In terms of calls by consumers and from governments to make reductions to improve recyclability. to enforce recycled content rates. all of this will continue, what effect it will have, I'm not sure, because legislation is passed all of the time, and whether it's enforced or not, that's a, that's another issue.

Cory Connors: 7:54

Yeah, I agree. And I think it's time to be dramatic about it. I think you're right to, to be dramatic. it's, I think COVID really, expedited everything. To the consumer. The consumer said, Hey, what is all this? why are you using this material when we could use that material? why are you, why is this box so big? how many posts did you see about, Hey, look at this giant box and this little item that I ordered. And it was because we weren't, we as the industry, we weren't dialed in on right size packaging for direct to consumer, Shipments yet, and that change is coming quickly and Things like that are really exciting. Do you see any particular materials or any kind of new? Packaging Makeups there anything like that are really in exciting for you that you think will be a game changer

Louis Gore-Laugton: 9:19

Yeah, I think 1 of the biggest things particularly is, legislation Clamps down on plastics, particularly on national levels. Companies, the industry is turning more towards, fibre based solutions, which traditionally, are created from wood. And, because of the sustainability concerns around that, a lot of companies are turning to alternative fibres, like, say, weed. And hemp and, using all of the immense amount of agro waste that's created by other industries, like crop production, and then turning that into packaging and that's something that, yeah, that I see is really, contributing to. Circularization within the industry, and particularly also attached to that is the invention of sealability. So barriers, barrier coatings for fiber products, because traditionally, as you know, they're coated in types of plastic composites or harmful chemicals like PFAS. there are some, there's some great companies in England, for example, a company called Sampler, and they're creating bio based alternatives so that you can have, fully fiber products.

Cory Connors: 10:32

What's that, name? I haven't heard that one. Z A M P L A? A M

Louis Gore-Laugton: 10:36

P L A. And, it was, it came out of a spin off originally from Cambridge University. And, they create, they're now, it's now, blown up in England. They create, it was originally mimicked, their material, I believe, mimicked on spider silk, and they can, they can put that onto, onto fiber materials. And then, of course, when the, when this legislation comes in requiring 100 percent recyclability, it means that products will, will abide by new laws.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 11:06

I think the biomimicry is maybe it's a trend, maybe it's a, new wave in packaging in itself, I think is so interesting. I love the idea of us going back to nature and back to how it was created and designed in the first place to fix some of these problems that humans have created ourselves. I think, I'm encouraged by a lot of the things that are coming out through biomimicry and things like that. So I'm really excited. I haven't heard of that. So I'm excited to, I wrote it down excited to follow up with that. I did want to go back a little bit and touch on what you said about regulations and, EPR. that's a really big deal, especially here in the States right now. Curious, what role do you think these regulations and policies play, and really driving the mission of sustainable packaging?

Louis Gore-Laugton: 11:56

yeah, I think they play, of course, very important roles. with that said, the effectiveness of, many of these regulations, particularly within the EU, which is something I'm much more familiar with. a couple of years ago, we had the Single Use Plastics Directive. come in and that's an example of a very sweeping, reform across, every member of the EU and, enforcement of that, of the laws behind that has been, minimal to say the least. And when it does, when it is eventually enforced. Most of the companies within Europe, at least, as I'm told, are not, are completely unprepared for what's coming. And that I think is, it's also true of now of the recent packaging and packaging waste regulation, which has come in, stipulating, reuse levels, recyclability levels, things like that for all packaging companies. They play, it plays a very important role. And of course, eventually it will, force the industry to make important changes. But with that said, Enforcement is patchy and also a lot of the industry is quite unaware of what's coming. So I think upwards of 90, almost upwards, I think of 95 percent of packaging businesses in the EU are small or medium sized enterprises and many of those are micro businesses. So they have a very small revenue. Maybe a lot of them won't be making profit and they don't know. what's coming so and they don't know the intricacies of the laws. So it's issues like that, which make, implementation and enforcement, particularly on a national level when it's come from a supranational. Um, regulation regulator, in the EU, this complicates things in big ways.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 13:51

The intricacies alone, and then trying to coordinate so many people who have, touched small bits of it across the board. I'm take a deep breath hearing that a lot.

Cory Connors: 14:03

And it seems like companies are going to be not forced, but, I think they're going to be, Urged to join forces and I think it will just start to make sense. There'll be Fewer and fewer companies more consolidation. we're seeing it in on a big scale with companies like amcor and berry joining forces veritiv aurora these kinds of things are really changing the industry. Do you feel like, companies can work together? We call it pre competitive collaboration, to streamline and use a similar formats in their packaging to be more sustainable.

Louis Gore-Laugton: 14:43

Yeah, definitely. And, I think companies are going to have to in order to, secure material supplies, particularly as, requirements for recycled, material content, increases, and we're already seeing that now big companies, particularly for, PET plastics, which is the most recycled plastic that's already in high demand. big companies like Coca Cola can buy up, as much as they like and smaller companies are left with limited access, even if they could afford it. There's simply not enough recycled pet on the market, and that is going to require, yeah, cross industry collaboration. And, it's something that we're already seeing, particularly with plastic bottles. in the EU is a good example. the industry is coming together to try and stop, the fashion industry buying up recycled pet, which they're doing to, to sell clothes. so say, through circular production, but they're actually just pulling recycled material out of another industry and breaking the loop, so to speak, within packaging. so it's issues like that, which I think you're right are going to, are going to create the need for mergers.

Cory Connors: 15:59

Yeah, well said. I hadn't thought about the fashion industry taking from the packaging industry and vice versa, maybe. this is really insightful. I think you're exactly right. We're going to have to, there's going to be a premium for recycled material. eventually with extended producer responsibility, PPWR, things like that, taking shape and finally coming to fruition. but you're right, these large global companies are going to absorb a massive amount of the available material. And I think smaller companies will, struggle to obtain that, post consumer recycled content. Yeah, well said.

Louis Gore-Laugton: 16:40

Yeah, definitely. for having me. there are industry bodies, in the EU, representing, the majority of packages. Say, calling on the EU to guarantee, first access to recycle plastics because at the moment, the plastic bottling industry creates most of the recycled plastics, up within Europe, but they have absolutely no control over getting it back. And so they commit all of this material and have committed a lot of resources into building the recycling infrastructure, but then they can simply be priced out by by bigger companies in other industries, that are not recycling their products. to come back, a bit to policy, I think giving market access in situations like this back to packages, is also very important and it's something that's not yet done.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 17:30

That's a deep breath after that one. That one, that's a lot. And thinking of that, the intricacies of regulations with small businesses, we're a big business and it's. We have a whole team who is very stressed about EPR over here, and there's only 5 states on board. So I can't even imagine what that would be like on a global scale, trying to understand if you're selling into all of these regions, which a lot of big companies and small companies are. What other than those really difficult challenges or opportunities for improvement? what else do you see in the market that's a challenge or people are finding challenging and obstacles to be more sustainable with their packaging?

Louis Gore-Laugton: 18:13

I think, again, it's a question of, of public infrastructure, because packages can come up with new designs, they can commit to improving their recyclability and recycle content rates, or reusability rates, but if they don't have, the necessary infrastructure through collection. Collecting the trash and taking it to the necessary places for reprocessing or recycling or whatever, then they simply can't fill what's required of them by law. and this is another problem that with things like EPR, it remains to be seen how that will play in, but. if they're taking taxes in England, for example, they can raise taxes on packages, but it doesn't mean that any of the taxes that they then raised, they have to commit back into recycling infrastructure. So they can spend more money somewhere else. It doesn't help the industry. They've told the public that they're going to raise, that they're introducing these new laws and it's going to improve sustainability. But at the end of the day, if the businesses. simply can't do what's asked of them, then, it's a problem, and, we're not seeing it yet, but a lot of people I know in Brussels, for example, are very worried that massive amounts of the industry are headed towards, crisis.

Cory Connors: 19:35

Yes, I agree. I think there's going to be a kind of a reckoning and It's a I think it's going to take a lot of people by surprise Because there's a lot of people that don't even have any that they're not worried about it this at all They're just business as usual And they're not paying attention. They're not signing up for the Circular Action Alliance. They're not trying to learn about these new things. They're not gathering their data with companies like SpecRight to accommodate these new laws and reporting things that they're going to have to do. They're not, preparing. And it's, I think you're right. There's going to be a lot of people that are going to get some major fines or taxes, however you want to call it. And just, it'll be a major surprise for them.

Louis Gore-Laugton: 20:23

Yeah, there's some, there's some very good, consultancy firms, emerging and growing around this. I think that will be, yeah, that'll be a bigger and bigger part of the industry really is some companies that can help. Thank you. Companies, now say, submit data ahead of coming in and help them prepare for because lots of companies that are in the business, say, of. Collecting trash or putting a small number of items out on the market. They just don't know about this stuff. And, in a lot of cases, why would they

Cory Connors: 20:58

right? Yeah. Companies like Lorax EPI, our friend, Michelle Carvel over there and Lydia, they're doing amazing things and they're getting busier and busier every day because there are people just rushing to this. They're all of a sudden realizing, oh, we have to do what? By when? And, you're exactly right that there's going to be a whole bunch of companies popping up to help accommodate those because it's not things, it's not things that companies are set up to do yet. Most of them. Yeah. What's that?

Louis Gore-Laugton: 21:29

Another thing I hear, often from suppliers. and packaging producers is that a lot of customers don't want to make the changes to new designs that would help them, abide by incoming legislation because they have a product, they have loyal, consumers and customers of their own. They're making a profit. It's not broke. Why fix it? even though there are answers there ready for them. and yeah, it just seems like there's also a lot of problem of, of inertia, within a lot of businesses that they don't want to break out. They don't want to, stick their heads out. Well said.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 22:08

But the time is running out right before they no longer have the choice to. It's no longer a brave choice. It's no longer just the right thing to do. It's something that they're going to have to do. It's yeah, it's going to be very messy, I think, in the next few years, as companies are trying to figure this out, going back and forth. I think it's why it's so important to have good partners. Corey mentioned a few of our friends and people that are doing really great things and helping companies in situations like this. I almost see it as like a, like an A team, like a, you've got to have a whole bunch of partners all together in order to really do this together. because. In most things in sustainability, we can't move forward unless we're together. So we talked a lot about what's going on in the market. I want to talk a little bit about what's going on for packaging insights. Can you tell us what's next? what things are you focusing on in the new year? what, what's going on?

Louis Gore-Laugton: 23:03

so this week, right now we're covering INC5, the global, the UN Global Plastics Treaty negotiations. So that's the final round. This is, this is an example of, of a big topic that we'd be covering and we do this. So we write, we write everyday news, covering everything from new product innovations, business highlights, regulatory stories, and we interview experts, in the industry. So these can be experts on all different sides of the debate, all different, areas of the world. And, yeah, this is something that's gonna continue. We also do webinars. we try to cover the industry, everywhere on earth. And so I was, we recently had bank Expo in America and that's something that we're trying to focus more, get more expertise about the American market, and equally in Asia as well.'cause what, what's happening in China and other East Asian comp, countries. Is very interesting, and I think it's not reported enough in the Western media because it's something that's also going to affect the packaging that you have in the States or that we have in Europe as, as these changes hit the market, there are also opportunities for Asian companies, which is a cause for concern and an opportunity, sustainability wise.

Cory Connors: 24:25

Are you actually in Korea right now? Or are you, when you're.

Louis Gore-Laugton: 24:28

we're based in, so our head office is in on, and we also have an office in Amsterdam. but on packaging insights, we have 4 people. and we, we're going to continue doing what we so every week we have video interviews with experts. We have written interviews with experts. we conduct webinars each year. we run a piece called top trends. And our sister company, the market insights, which is a market analyst, they create these top trends. So you'll see. Next year that we have, the top trends. Within the packaging industry, and this is taken by experts from and we'll publish them and we'll run a webinar on it next summer.

Cory Connors: 25:14

That's great. I'm looking forward to that. Yeah, I am too. How do people get access to that? How do people get in touch with you? What's the best ways of reaching out?

Louis Gore-Laugton: 25:26

Yeah, so go on packaginginsights. com and if you want to get in touch, then you can email editorial at cnsmedia. com And, yeah, I really encourage everybody to, yeah, to find us on LinkedIn, follow us and, read the news. we have, we have breaking updates rather than, continuously. And every day we have a news daily newsletter going on. Every week, we do newsletter and we also have trends and highlights. We do a special report every week about our main industry theme in which we'll speak to, industry companies.

Cory Connors: 26:04

Great. Thank you, sir. Really been great. Appreciate it.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 26:08

Yeah, thanks for coming.