Woola Packaging CEO Anna Liisa Palatu

https://www.woola.io/

Did you know that 90% of wool produced is wasted? 
How can they use this "waste" material to make sustainable packaging? 

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Transcript

Cory Connors: 0:31

Welcome to Sustainable Packaging with Cory Connors

Brodie Vander Dussen: 0:34

and Brodie Vander Dussen . We're

Cory Connors: 0:36

very excited today to have a very unique product, represented by our friend Anna Liisa Palatu . She is the CEO and co founder of Woola, and they are using wool in a very unique Way to make a sustainable packaging that I think is, totally innovative and I'm really excited when people find something that is a, a waste product and they figure out how to turn it into something very valuable in the packaging world. Welcome, Annalisa.

Anna Liisa Palatu: 1:12

Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's great to be here.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 1:16

we're excited to have you. I think I got to do a lot of sleuthing on the internet and some research to figure out kind of what Woola is and what you guys are doing. I know you and Corey got to meet in London, which is so cool, but, for myself and for our listeners, can you tell us a little bit about yourself, how Woola started? what's the mission? What are you guys doing over there? All

Anna Liisa Palatu: 1:38

Yeah, so that's a big question to start with already, but starting with myself, so I'm based in Estonia and Thailand, probably the country that is most known for its startups, actually, and we founded Woola back in 2020. And I got the idea from the fact that me and my co founders, we used to run an online store before this. so we had a lot of startup ideas before most of them failed. And one of them was this like tiny online store where we, got like firsthand experience into the packaging issue, uh, specifically. The, plastic bubble wrap issue. So we started looking for a replacement for plastic bubble wrap that we could use at our own online store. And it was really difficult to find something because there was nothing on the market that will be sustainable, protect parcels in terms of in transportation and also look good. so we started testing out a bunch of different materials and a bunch of different solutions. So we had like reusable boxes, but nothing really worked. nothing really worked. it was very, really difficult to find something. And then I saw this article about sheep wool. So the article said that 90 percent of wool goes to waste in Estonia. And I was quite shocked, because I had no idea that this was the case. Cause I thought that wool is, a material that we use in textile and everything. So why does it go to waste? So it really sparked my interest and I started looking more into this. And I found out that it's a global issue. So in Europe, it's 200, 000 tons of wool that goes to waste every year, and to put it into perspective, like just how large of a quantity this is, this amount of wool could replace all plastic bubble wrap globally. So knowing this, It all clicked for me, because wool is like a fluffy material. It's a waste and, it has all of these qualities like, regulating temperatures, humidity. And at the same time, we were looking for an elastic material that could replace bubble wrap. So it seemed like the perfect fit. We made like a first prototype. And I remember there was a hackathon that same week, that we came up with the idea. So we went to the hackathon and we won. And then things started moving very fast for us in a typical startup fashion. So within, I think it was like six months, we had already set up our own factory here in Estonia as well. We had some paying customers, we'd done our pre seed round and that's how things started unrolling.

Cory Connors: 4:06

Really impressive. I, you sent me, your team sent me some samples and I wanted to show them to the audience here before we get too far. But this is a mailer. and lined with wool. It's very soft. I wanted to see why is this material going to waste? Why aren't they turning it into, clothing or other textile products? It seems like they, they should be using it for other things.

Anna Liisa Palatu: 4:37

so the kind of wool that we know from clothing, wool and sweaters and wool and socks and things like that, that are very expensive and very popular for hiking and for winter climates. in those kinds of, garments, the type of wool that is used is merino wool. Marina wool or other type of very high quality wool, and this is usually imported from Australia or New Zealand or some other countries that, have this type of specific and very high quality wool, but for pretty much the rest of the world. The quality of wool is so low that you can't use it in textile production. And this is like pretty much a century old issue, a little bit less because as we started getting, synthetic textiles, the textile industry obviously changed. synthetic textiles became, very cheap and they're quite easy to manage because they're, man made, so they're always the same and all the machinery that is, used in the textile industry was, built. After the synthetic textiles and wool became obsolete because of this and let's say a hundred years ago when somebody had to wear a woolen sweater that was like a bit itchy and not as fine as merino wool, people didn't really complain because we didn't have the kinds of like choices that we have today. So it was fine to wear it. But with the introduction of textiles that are made from synthetics, people did have a choice and wool became, just like a waste material. So what we started seeing when we first found out about this problem is that farmers are literally burning and burying this wool, which is such a shame because it really is like a natural miracle material. So it does a lot of things, on its own. For example, it regulates temperatures. So that's the reason, wool is also used in like high quality, mountaineering gear, for example, because wool are, sheep are never warm in the summer and they're never cold in the winter because wool is able to regulate temperatures very well. it also regulates humidity. So it can absorb up to 37 percent of humidity compared to its own mass without releasing it. So it's hard to even believe that wool is such a naturally high tech material. And yeah, we thought that it's such a shame that farmers are just, throwing it away or burning it. So it seemed like the, perfect opportunity to introduce it into packaging and actually use it to, to fight fossil fuel based packaging.

Cory Connors: 7:11

Brody, this reminds me of the happy sheep we spoke about with our friend. we have a mutual friend on the show, Julia Marsh, the CEO of sway. And Anna Lisa was talking about her just, just before we started. And, I think we, I don't know how that came up, but, we were talking about how their packaging wool sweaters, made, Made from a happy sheep, of course, and using sway bags. So now we're, we've gone full circle here back to the raw material.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 7:43

Yeah, exactly. I did not know that about the temperature regulating of sheep and wool. that makes sense, but I just, I guess I never thought about that. Wow, really cool. Can you tell me a little bit about the performance? Like, how does it do in comparison as packaging? temperature wise, it makes sense. I'm thinking like, cold chain would be maybe a good opportunity. Like, how that could work, maybe? Maybe it doesn't because it's, would keep everything very room temperature. But, like, how does it relate performance wise to plastic, like you said, plastic bubble or plastic air billows or things like that?

Anna Liisa Palatu: 8:18

Yeah, so actually the main, quality of wool that we are focusing on is, the protection that it provides parcels and transportation and all the other things are like, add ons, that plastic, can provide. And in terms of protection, it's the same amount of cushioning and the same amount of, protection that plastic bubble wrap can provide. offers to, to the products that are packed, for example, in a bubble mailer. And we have run quite a lot of tests on this. We also have, some pretty cool and entertaining videos about this where we're actually like throwing a parcel, that is in Woola as well as in Bubblewrap from the height of, one meter. So that should be. 3. 2 feet, right? I'm not very good at the conversions here. But, but yeah, so in terms of the performance, there is no difference. So in that sense, wool is as good in protecting parcels and transportation as bubble wrap is. And that is super important. Because if that weren't the case, then, we wouldn't have a business case here because nobody's going to buy sustainable packaging that actually doesn't work. yeah, that's, that's one thing. And, and yeah, in terms of the, in terms of regulating temperatures and humidity. So like I mentioned before, it's an add on, but at the same time for a lot of companies, it's very important. we work a lot with, companies that are shipping cosmetics, for example, and, like nowadays in Europe, we have all kinds of climates, summers get, extremely warm with heat waves, and in the winters here in the north, it's obviously way below freezing, products like, creams and lotions, in the winter, they have a risk of freezing. And in the summer, they can melt. So in that sense, like wool is the, wool is the perfect material for this. And for, us here in Estonia, like the temperature regulating qualities of wool are, not a surprise at all, because during the winter, we basically live in wool. And everyone has tested like how well it actually works because wool has this quality that when you sweat and you're wearing a woolen socks or a woolen sweater, when wool gets wet, it doesn't get cold. And that's like a big difference compared to cotton. And obviously like when cotton gets wet, it gets cold. So for us, when we found out that wool is available in such a large quantity, it just all started making so much sense because we didn't really need We didn't need to be convinced on wool's qualities because we already knew what, what wool is capable for.

Cory Connors: 10:48

That's great. Product research all your whole life. Well done.

Anna Liisa Palatu: 10:52

Exactly.

Cory Connors: 10:53

So it sounds like you don't have an issue with supply. It sounds like you have farmers, asking you, please kindly remove this material from us. And eventually there may even be an opportunity for, companies like yours to pay for that material. So the farmers can make extra money, But, actually,

Anna Liisa Palatu: 11:11

we, we are paying for the wool. We started doing that from the start because otherwise it just didn't make sense to take the wool from them for free, even though they did have this issue. But, we're focused on the long term, commitment with the farmer. yeah, we started paying them from the start.

Cory Connors: 11:26

That's great. And it sounds like a great partnership. How, what kind of challenges have you found in the scale up of this unique packaging material?

Anna Liisa Palatu: 11:35

Yeah, so it's exactly like you, mentioned in your question that usually when we go to like expos or something like that, then the first question that people have is yeah, but you're going to run out of wool soon. Right. And that's so not the case, so supply is not one of the issues that we're facing. And of course I get some challenging to set up a production for a new product and it has not been easy by any means, but I still think that. The biggest challenge that we have, as well as every startup is sales and really like scaling sales, because I personally haven't met any founder who has said that, sales is easy or that they haven't had any issues with scaling up their revenue, maybe in some startups in AI, but that's like a different world for me. yes, scaling sales is definitely a challenge, but at the same time, I have really seen the market evolve over the last 4 years. So we started in 2020 right with, We started in 2020 right when COVID started as well. And, in the beginning of the lockdown e commerce was obviously booming. So we did have a lot of interest from, from that side, but at the same time, Companies today are way more mature in terms of, switching to sustain a sustainable solutions and also, knowing what they want in terms of sustainability than they were 4 years ago. So I've definitely seen, a lot of improvement in terms of, Companies being willing to pay more for sustainable packaging than they were in 2020, but obviously scaling is hard, I believe, for everyone. So we're not that different in that sense.

Cory Connors: 13:25

You're doing a great job and, we're excited for you and hopefully this podcast will help spur some sales along and, we'll bring this, material to America and, share it with the world for you, with you. Yeah,

Brodie Vander Dussen: 13:37

I hope so. Absolutely. I know earlier we talked about getting some samples up in the lab, in San Jose. So getting just more exposure. And I think also, Yeah, working with packaging companies out here to help partner and be that arm out here would be, I think, really helpful and really cool to really accelerate a lot. I'm curious what your opinion is on, We've seen a shift in consumers. We've seen a shift in businesses. We've seen a shift in government towards, pushing in 1 way or another towards sustainable packaging and, we're met with lots of obstacles, and I'm going to call them opportunities instead of challenges. I'm curious in your opinion, what can governments companies consumers do really to accelerate this transition to more. Sustainable packaging.

Anna Liisa Palatu: 14:25

Yeah, there are a lot of, aspects in the question that you mentioned, and I feel like, talking about the help that we can get from governments versus, how we can actually sell our product to clients are very different, Opportunities, right? Opportunities, not challenges. So in terms of governments and how to like escalate, the kind of changes in legislation that we need. So our, idea with governments is that is something that we cannot control. Obviously, there are some ways for it. We could lobby, we could hire an entire department that works on lobbying and making sure that, for example, Single use plastic is banned, and if this were to happen, this would change everything for us and it would make things, let's say, much easier for us in terms of scaling, but that is beyond our control. And as a startup, you have so many fires to put out every single day that we just, try to focus on the things that we can control. So in terms of like government, which is let that be. As well as like you regulations and everything else. So we're not actively working on accelerating the change there. but yeah, we are putting all of our efforts on, convincing clients and, like a little bit educating them as well. But what we have seen, what brings the most results is that we. Want to offer our clients a packaging that's not just sustainable, but that's better than plastic. So plastic is still our main competitor today. And, like we learned quite early on that, a big reason why companies are interested in Woola is because, they want, packaging that's unique packaging that, like stores. Sparks an interest in their end users because at the end of the day, packaging is part of how they drive sales. And we've seen this a lot with, clients here in Europe that they are under a lot of pressure from their end users, where it gets to a point that their end users are saying that if you're going to ship me my parcel in plastic, I'm going to stop buying from your store. And this is obviously affecting their income. what we're doing is, we're selling sustainable packaging that also looks good. And that, gives this opportunity to use the parcel as a sort of a vehicle for their own branding. So that is like our approach there with driving sales from customers.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 16:51

Yeah, I think that unique packaging is it's a good challenge to have as we're getting more and more creative and there's more and more brands like this that are, the unboxing experience, especially post COVID post pandemic, so much has moved to e commerce and so that your brand really is in someone's home and like, how much control do you have over that experience versus in the store where you could have, an end cap display or, there's so much nuance in that. And so I think that I'm excited about the unboxing experience. I think that there's so much room for that to become cooler and better and a vehicle for branding experience. I've seen some really great examples of it. But yeah, Woola would be a great option to include in that. My wheels are turning as you're talking about this, all the different brands that have come through the lab that I'm like, oh, this would have been perfect for them. I've got some emails to write to send your website over to that's great.

Cory Connors: 18:18

I'm looking at your products here, and you've got this. This is your top seller, right? The envelope that's lined with Woola , material, it's actually a separate pouch, which means that, very easy to, remove and reuse even, something else. It could even be a storage for, the material. This is a really neat box that your team sent me lined with woolen material. Do you have any new products coming out that you want to talk about? what's next for Woola? What, we're excited to see the future of your packaging materials.

Anna Liisa Palatu: 18:50

Yeah. So the very first product that we started from was the wool envelope. So the first product that you showed, and that has also been like majority of our sales. then the, basically the new product that we have is the wool box, that you showed us the second, product. Over there. And that's something that we are offering to companies that are shipping, for example, watches. So they need like the outer box that's made usually from cardboard, as well as the inner lining. it's also for, companies that are shipping items that are a bit bigger. So things that don't fit into an envelope or things that are too heavy to be put in an envelope. and we have quite a lot of customization options with the wool box. we do, custom products. Products as well. so that's mainly for, companies that are coming in with larger orders. And then another product that we have, which is probably one of our favorites, is something that we call bubble wool. So obviously inspired by bubble wrap, but it is a sheet material. that has these little wool bubbles in it and it can also be like customized partially. we have, we have been able to emboss logos on it as well. And that's for, again, for shipping larger items. things that don't fit into an envelope.

Cory Connors: 20:07

I like it. I really like it. This is cool. This is the wool, bubble, as you said, I love the W logo there. And I could imagine a large brand or even a small brand being very excited to have a customized wool blanket essentially for their packaging. It's just what a high end luxury feel. and we mentioned the unboxing experience before I think consumers are going to. Flip out over this stuff. I really do. I'm sure you've gotten really great feedback so far.

Anna Liisa Palatu: 20:39

Yeah so the first time that we came up with a prototype of this product was like actually Quite a long time ago. It was right in the beginning of Woola in 2020. But at that time we were not able to produce this at scale. But the first time that this sort of came out with the machine, we freaked out because it looked so cool. And, yeah, it's definitely like the most unique product that we have. And, in terms of like end users, yeah, we've gotten some pretty interesting ideas from them because people are so creative. we have, a whole. Page on our landing on our website that's dedicated to ideas that we've gotten from end users in terms of how they reuse the packaging. So one thing that we get a lot is that cats and dogs and other pets really like Woola. So they like sleeping on it. We have a lot of photos of people's pets sleeping on the wool envelopes or on the bubble wool. Then, we have people who have used, wool as a dish mop, so it works very well for that. it works for polishing silver jewelry, and then my favorite is definitely, an example of one, client from Norway where, their end user used the wool as, shoe insole. So again, what I mentioned before regulates temperatures, regulates humidity, perfect for Nordic winters. I've tested that out myself as well. It works quite well. yeah, so there are a bunch of ideas that the end users have come up with, which I guess is a sign that they like it.

Cory Connors: 22:10

Excellent. Well done.

Brodie Vander Dussen: 22:12

And I think maybe if I was listening to this and was listening to, repurposing discarded waste wool, I wouldn't. I wouldn't picture what it looks like. It looks clean and it looks luxury and it looks, even Corey, you're holding up that sheet. And I was like, I would love that on my bed. that looks really cozy and something that I would like is not what I pictured when I heard waste product. And I think that's a really important factor that if someone's listening to this, that they look it up because it really, truly is. I think really cool and is a luxury. It adds to that unboxing experience and it doesn't feel like a waste product, but in the same way, like it really, like you were saying, your consumer and consumers are continuing that life cycle and continuing to give, again, what could have been waste. Because it's packaging and that typically is where things end up, giving it a new life as shoe insoles. I'm seeing things in here, like lining the bottom of a flower pot. Like how cool, I'm obviously obsessed with the cats and dogs and all of the pictures that they are in. I think that's a really cool. Story of this evolution of this product can just continue to live and live. Do you have anything else you want to talk about anything else? You want to share?

Anna Liisa Palatu: 23:32

yeah, just to quickly reflect on what you mentioned about wasteful because I think it's, yeah, it's a very interesting topic because. The phrase waste wool is not doing the wool justice, but unfortunately we haven't found another term. We have some pretty like good phrases for it in Estonia, but unfortunately the whole world doesn't speak Estonian. So that's not very helpful. but, yeah, it's not waste wool. it's just wool that is left over because the kind of, the kind of. farms that we work with, they're all small scale farms. and this is something that's really important for us because right, when we started Woola, we knew that there's no way that we're going to work with factory farms or anyone who practices intensive farming because that is not sustainable and that is also not ethical. So the kind of wool that is considered waste wool. it's just coming from, small scale farmers that have to shear their sheep every year because if they wouldn't do it, then the sheep couldn't move. And there are cases where, I think from Australia where sheep, that have escaped the farm or gotten lost, their owners find them, several years later and they're just walking around with uh, a massive amount of wool on their backs. I think it was like 20 kilos or something like that. So it makes it very difficult for them to move. So this is why sheep need to be sheared. Otherwise they would have trouble moving. So in that sense, yeah, it's considered waste wool, but it's, it actually has a lot of worth, in our opinion. Wow,

Cory Connors: 25:01

I see so many things that this can be used for. I'm very, excited for the future of your company. what's the best way? And I want to ask you a question after this, but what's the best way, for people to get in touch with you?

Anna Liisa Palatu: 25:15

So we, are basically everywhere. Woola. io is the best place to start from. So that's our website and we offer free samples to, online stores and everyone who has a use case for our products, because it's the kind of product that you actually have to. See and touch with your own hands to understand what it's all about. the pictures don't really do it justice because once you receive the parcel, then you see what we're really talking about. So website is a good start. we're pretty active on LinkedIn as well. Sharing some, also some, office related content, as you can maybe see from my virtual background. so yeah, that those are the best ways to get in touch with us.

Cory Connors: 25:57

I'm a big fan of The Office and, like we were talking about before, a lot of the Aurora packaging products are in that warehouse, which is so cool. Would you do us a favor and would you say something in Estonian? Would you say something like, thank you for listening to the Sustainable Packaging Podcast or something like that?

Anna Liisa Palatu: 26:16

Yeah, sure. To end

Cory Connors: 26:17

it. for listening to to a

Anna Liisa Palatu: 26:19

I hope we can help you with a continuous package. Awesome. I love

Cory Connors: 26:25

it. Thank you so much. What a beautiful language, and we appreciate your time today. Thank you.

Anna Liisa Palatu: 26:32

Yeah. It was great talking to you guys. Thank you. Thank you.