Sustainable Packaging
Industry Experts discuss all the new materials and ways that packaging can be more sustainable and how we can do our parts to help recycle and reuse. Sustainable Packaging is and will continue to affect us all in our daily lives. We have lots of fun and get down to the real data of what's working to help our planet!
Sustainable Packaging
Pippa Corry (Philo and Co) Founder and Director
https://www.philoand.co/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/pippa-corry-40640347/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/brodievanderdussen/
How is the roll of the packaging designer changing?
Why are designers so focused on recyclable materials?
What can Australia teach the rest of the world about sustainability?
https://www.linkedin.com/in/cory-connors/
I'm here to help you make your packaging more sustainable! Reach out today and I'll get back to you asap.
This podcast is an independent production and the podcast production is an original work of the author. All rights of ownership and reproduction are retained—copyright 2022.
Welcome to Sustainable Packaging with Cory Connors
Brodie Vander Dussen:and Brody Vanderdusen.
Cory Connors:We're very excited for today's guest, a friend of a friend and, really want to thank, Lindy for, suggesting you as a, guest and, because, you're both, Australians, I believe. And, Oh, no.
Pippa Corry:British and Australian. Oh.
Cory Connors:Oh. Okay. Close enough, right? Close enough. Similar accents. That's all we have on this show. British or Australian. But thank you again for being on, Pippa. We really appreciate it. Pippa Corey is the founder and director of Philo and Co. And we're excited to learn about that, what that is.
Brodie Vander Dussen:Yeah. could you tell us a little bit more about what Philo and Co is, how you started it? where did that come from?
Pippa Corry:Yeah, sure. So we're a sustainability and circular economy consultancy. and our work specializes in packaging, design, strategy, and communication. And we work really closely with FMCG brands, but also design agencies. so we've really tailored the needs, to, to both of those audiences. So obviously how we work with It's slightly different to brands, but the knowledge and the thinking is obviously all the same. yeah, we cover packaging assessments, regulatory compliance, packaging communication strategies. We do a lot of work with training, and also from a design perspective, looking at how we can support design agencies to, improve their creative process to really embed sustainability and circularity into it. I'd say in terms of a journey, it's been quite a natural evolution. So. I actually studied product design, so I've got a Bachelor of Science in product design, and that led me to working with a number of packaging design agencies for global brands. yeah, I'm a designer by trade. and I guess I had my kind of first, I call them aha moments through my career. I was actually working with one of your very good friends, I think, Cori Paul Foulkes at a design agency in London. and I was managing a kind of a pan European packaging renovation and I really started to look at. The impact claims and the recyclability and, all the time and resource that had gone into it. And I really started to realize how much. Waste was potentially being generated from, some of the packaging that we were working on. and I really just, yeah, for me, that just opened my world to waste and I just started to see and. Yeah, everywhere, really. I was then at a conference quite a few years later, and I heard Chris Grantham from IDEO present The Circular Economy. And for me, that's what I'd been looking for. With all the research I was doing at the time, that just, for me, solved so many of the problems that I was seeing. so yeah, I kept studying. going back to the agencies I was working with, having those conversations with brands, really trying to discuss and explore those challenges and areas of opportunities. And then my kind of last aha moment was, which I think was my kind of real light bulb moment was, have you heard of the Adobe creative types? It's a test that you can do. Yeah. So I got sent that and it identified me as an innovator. And when I read it, it just resonated so much with me. it really talks to looking at the lens of possibilities and progress and looking at different solutions. And, you really look at challenging systems and, looking at how you can break those things down. By that point, my awareness of the waste crisis was really extensive. And, yeah, I think I just really saw the role that design could play, in addressing a lot of those critical issues. yeah, just kept researching and looking at how I could bring that all together for agencies and brands. And that's really where Philo Co came from.
Cory Connors:Love that. Paul, folks, is a, One in a million. He is, I'm honored to be a friend of his and, I got to see him. He came to my hometown of Portland, Oregon, and we got to spend a few hours together walking around Portland and experiencing local food. And I got to, show him what, Mary and Barry is, and, these things that are Oregon specific. He thought, oh, this is really cool. He was here, Portland, Oregon. Keynote speaking at a shoe conference and which makes sense because he's the shoe guy, but
Pippa Corry:he is the shoe guy. he's the many guy and also always great glasses as well.
Cory Connors:Yeah, always. a lot of people say that they are consultants or they have an agency or, but what's something specific or unique about Philo and Co that you do that, people should reach out to you for?
Pippa Corry:Yeah, sure. So I think it's a few folds really just breaking it down. I think from a packaging perspective in particular, we really try and look at three magic ingredients with what we call the three magic ingredients and we're working on them. And that's really looking at system data and design. if we're looking to achieve a circular economy, we really need to drive systems change. so we really work with organizations to, map those complex systems and really understand the stakeholders involved in that. So we can really get clear on, particularly for packaging, those end of life recovery systems and regulations that are coming through. Data is obviously, critical and it's just the hot topic on everyone's lips at the moment for packaging. to make informed design decisions, we really need that data to make evidence based decisions. and obviously more increasingly with the regulations coming in, making sure that we have the data required to comply with that. so I think, that's a really key part of the work that we do in understanding those baselines and looking at how we can develop those, effective data management systems. And then it's bringing that all through design, what circular and sustainability principles can we apply that are going to reduce the impact across the packaging life cycle and really make sure that we're aligning to those recovery and those regulatory systems. I think what's probably. unique, about FIDO and code more is, I guess the sectors that we bridge, having that kind of core offering that does support design agencies, that is my background. That's the world that I trained. And I guess I grew up in, in the early days of my career. And I really wanted to have something that could empower those businesses and those teams to develop more sustainable packaging and really effective and authentic sustainability communications, but also giving them something that they can then work towards as an organization themselves. So it's not just about having a shell and, we can create this wonderful sustainable packaging for you. We're walking the walkers as well. but obviously, by Through my experience that I've had with design agencies. I've obviously had that lens directly through into the FMCG space So I've really got to understand their pain points and their needs over the years it's fortunate that I can bridge both of those sectors and support Yeah, the agencies but also what the brands are now starting to face.
Cory Connors:That's great. that
Brodie Vander Dussen:yeah, I know I love the How experience can build on itself. I feel like we find ourselves in opportunities when we're looking for it, maybe that's the term is when you're looking for opportunities that you can pull your experience into, and it can build on, so I love that. I love that you're giving, almost giving back to design agencies through this and through supporting them through that. How do you see the role of packaging designers changing, Currently, or how, where do you see them going in the future?
Pippa Corry:Yeah, I think first and foremost, it's really important to also acknowledge why design. And for me, one of those really telling moments that I had with, when I was hearing Chris Grantham speak all those years ago, just unpack the principles of the circular economy. Design is in the wording of that, so to drive a circular economy, design is so important for that. and I think particularly for packaging designers, They're in a position where they can actually make really informed decisions. So that's now in a place where the decisions you make when If you're developing a creative territory or you're designing a new packaging format for a client, the decisions you make might actually impact that packaging components, recyclability, and therefore that kind of regulatory. Commitments or eco modulation fees now, as a kind of an as an extreme. and I really saw that when I was doing some training with an agency, we'd gone through, unpacking material recovery facilities and, the principles around design for recyclability. and one of the women ran into the studio and ripped this. territory of the law, they said, Oh, my gosh. So would this be a problem? Like, would this not be able to be recycled then? And I was like, Oh, no, I'm afraid probably it's going to be a bit problematic. They're like, Oh, the client loves that one. So it just goes to show how influential they are. it's not to say all the responsibility obviously sit with designers, but it's really key to have that awareness. So I'd say from, yeah, packaging design perspective, it's obviously there. Same too for brand messaging and greenwashing. it's really important if we're working with, consumer brands, we're helping them develop messaging that is, aligned with, environmental claims, regulations, and guidances. And design has such a huge role in influencing behaviors. we can address that across the whole packaging chain, or you could look at just, how you can influence and engage consumers. So I think as a role, it has a really strong, opportunity. I think what I've seen change most recently is I've certainly seen a growing shift of design agencies having a specific sustainable packaging offering. I've worked with quite a few design agencies to help them develop their own process. That's a huge part of the work that I do with design agencies. and a much growing, Awareness, I think, of the problems. you've got organizations like the Design Council UK, we've got Design Declares, which is now a growing group of designers that are declaring a climate and ecological emergency. So all of those. aspects are starting to feed into that kind of greater awareness and an education. The Design Council actually did a really good report recently. I think it was this year that they, they brought out, but they found in, the research they did that 71 percent of the designers, saw a rising demand 43 percent felt they, had the skills and the capability to meet that demand. So I think that really highlights that gap and that need for upskilling, and making sure that yeah, together we're all working through, through that journey.
Cory Connors:I like that upskilling. I haven't heard that term.
Pippa Corry:Upskilling. It might, I dunno if it's a PIP term. I use it a lot. I love it. I love it.
Cory Connors:it makes sense, right? We're up upscaling. We're upskilling ourselves. We're upscaling our lives, all at the same time.. Pippa Corry: Yeah. So I might borrow that from you if you don't mind.
Pippa Corry:Please do. Please do. I think also for agencies as well, I've seen a change in the demand and the expectation from their clients as well. there's this questions being asked around. what's your approach to your carbon footprint? What are you doing? Can you share a bit of information about this, etc. Again, for me, it's really important that you have, an authentic way of aligning to sustainability and making it feel relevant for you as a design agency, but having that skill set and that capability to support your clients as well. So I feel, yeah, so fortunate to be able to go through that process with my clients because it's just It's very rewarding watching them go through that and get to the end and they're just, eager to get everything out there and in the world.
Cory Connors:I grew up in the Northwest and that really in USA, and that's really influenced me. And oftentimes I'm asked on podcasts, like, why do you care so much about sustainability? Why do you care about the environment? and it's been the way I've grown up. it's the way it, I've always felt it should be, have you, do you feel like your time in the UK and Australia has really influenced your, methods and the way you think about things?
Pippa Corry:Certainly. I think I echo your sentiment. I think, sustainability, Has always been a part of me. I remember when I was doing my bachelor degree university, every project I working on had a sustainability focus to it. and I think, yeah, just those kind of aha moments that I mentioned, the more I started to see. Bye. I couldn't switch off after that. So it just sparked this curiosity in me. I think obviously being living in Australia now, it is a very outdoors lifestyle. So I think there is a really there's a strong awareness here of, preserving the environment and, taking good care and being good custodians to the planet. so yeah, I think, whenever you're out in nature, I just look at it and I think the systems and the design that functions this and drives this is just phenomenal and I think Again, you know the more you understand and the more you know about it. I just think the more impressive nature really is Yeah,
Cory Connors:said Very true.
Brodie Vander Dussen:I love that. I feel like often we know what needs to get done and we know how to make things more sustainable or we have these goals to achieve it. But, maybe the infrastructure isn't there or there are some challenges. We have to convince the right people internally. I'm curious how you feel, what are some of the biggest challenges Australia currently faces as a country to implement. some of these changes that we know we need to see.
Pippa Corry:Yeah. So I think from a packaging perspective, So just for some context, in Australia, we have an organization called APCO. So they're the Australian Packaging Covenant Organization. And they are yeah, spearheading and that kind of contract between the regulatory system and industry at the moment. and they've just developed their 2030 strategy and that's really in response to the main barriers that we've had in working towards our national, packaging targets. And at the moment, those barriers are very much economic barriers. Australia is quite uniquely geographically placed. So yeah, we've got a kind of a lot of complexity around the actual cost of recycling. and in some instances that's exceeding the market value of the recycled outputs. So that's obviously been a real barrier to, the financial incentives at that point. We've got, insufficient collecting systems for a lot of materials at the moment. and we don't have a harmonized curbside collection system currently. and obviously we, not obviously, but we also do have reprocessing limited limitations onshore as well. So we don't necessarily have the reprocessing capacity and demand to collect those materials. So that's then limiting recycling rates and material. use. So yeah, they're the key barriers that I think have come through our work to date towards the national packaging targets. the latest recovery and consumption report that was done, I think it was 21 to 22. We have about 44 percent of post consumer packaging actually ending up in landfill in Australia. about 14 percent of the packaging isn't designed, sorry, is not recyclable by design and about another 24 percent is recyclable, but it's not collected. So when we talk about circular economy, and, we're using Recycling is a core part of that dialogue, which I'll maybe unpack in a bit, it's far from a circular process. so yeah, I'd say they're the kind of main challenges at the moment. We also have, as I touched on here, The geographical size and location of Australia. it's a big country. We've got very varied population densities from, highly populated metropolitan hubs to really remote and regional communities. So it's looking at how you build those cost effective and consistent systems across that variety. I worked on a study a few years ago, which I guess on the flip side of that was looking at, where are there the reuse and refill opportunities? to take that, that variation into consideration as well. Where can we lean in and where do we need to be, really trying to bring businesses together. yeah, I'd say that they're the kind of the key ones from my perspective at the moment. But I think again, putting that kind of innovator hat back on. with those challenges, there's a huge amount of opportunity on the other side just with those landfill rates. I'm just looking at a figure here. Yeah, I think that was, they estimated, since the landfill for the 21 to 22, recovery date, Right. They estimated that's a loss value of 900 million Australian dollars. So that is just such a huge opportunity there. that's really, without even looking at the emissions factor and savings that can be, obtained as well.
Cory Connors:Yeah, it's, this is a big journey we're on. there's a long ways to go. it's job security for the 3 of us for sure. we have lots to do, but we can't get overwhelmed. We have to appreciate that. these little advances will make big impacts in the future, but switching gears a little bit. You were recently on my friend, Lindy Houston's. podcast, the PKN, podcast, and she is the president of the IPPO, and I'm a member of that. but congratulations. I have to read this because you, this is a very long award that you've won. It's, you were awarded the PKN Design and Branding Visionary Woman in Packaging Award. Correct.
Pippa Corry:Thank you so much. I have it here. Oh, what a,
Cory Connors:can you bring it up to the camera so we can see what it looks like? It's really beautiful.
Pippa Corry:Very beautiful. Oh,
Cory Connors:wow.
Brodie Vander Dussen:Wow.
Pippa Corry:So it takes pride of place. I unfortunately was busy getting married, for the award ceremony, so I wasn't able to actually go up and, receive it myself, but one of my lovely clients went, and attended, in my absence. And yeah, she said the event was just phenomenal. It was a really great experience and just really inspiring. So yeah. I'll be there next year for sure.
Cory Connors:Maybe you'll give the next one away to the next one. That would
Pippa Corry:be great. Yeah, great idea.
Cory Connors:and you got to have your priorities straight like that. So good for you. And, yeah, how can you tell us about that experience? What was that like to win a big award like that? I always ask people.
Pippa Corry:Yeah, I think, it was obviously certainly a huge highlight of my year. and for those that aren't aware of the award, it was an inaugural program that was brought to Australia for, by PKM. So as you mentioned, yeah, spearheaded, spearheaded by Lindy. and it's really about, highlighting diversity and innovation in the Australian packaging industry. and I think for me that really builds on the momentum we have currently in Australia for women in packaging. I think for me personally winning it has just really highlighted how crucial good design and branding and sustainability are. They're not exclusive to one another, and they're certainly no longer a nice to have. so I think for me it's really got to be about looking at how we authentically integrate all of those three components. really looking at how the design fits with the brand identity and the purpose and, aligning to those organizations. and I think it just probably reaffirms that kind of initial spark in me, really looking at the way forwards where and how we can push and challenge systems. There's a great quote from Albert Einstein, which I love, which says you can't solve a problem with the same thinking that created it. And I just think that's so true for where we are now and where we want to go in the future with the circular economy. Yeah, we really just need to keep pushing those boundaries. And I think that's also true for me with what it means for the future with the regulations and design standards we have coming in. They're going to do some great things, I hope. But what I hope is that we can look at those as our baseline measure and not the goal. Because I think if we have it as the goal, We may fall harm of not unpacking the true innovation and, the true circular outcomes that they could actually achieve for us. So I think that's certainly something that I'll be pushing forward with, the work that I do supporting, my clients, and just really looking at how we can continue to weave those core elements together. and yeah, really just continue to drive success for the Australian packaging future.
Cory Connors:Exciting. I,
Brodie Vander Dussen:Olga from SPC had this really great talk, at the SPC event here in the fall, really advocating for our sustainability goals are great, but they cannot be the destination. They have to be the step towards that. Milestones in our journey for sure, but they cannot be the destination. We don't get to hit 2025, 2030, 2035, 2050 and call it a day. It has to continue and it has to keep going because the greater mission is that climate change. And, I, it invigorated me. I was, it was really excited to hear that. So it sounds like something that you also feel towards. And I love that. I love the. We have to be really repositioning or reframing the thinking towards these goals in our head and how we attack them because you're right. You're totally right. We will miss the innovation and we will miss the next big best thing. If we're not, if we set our goals and our sights too low, these goals are important. But they cannot be the destination.
Pippa Corry:100%. And I think it's also, I think, what I see with some clients is it understanding that this is a dynamic process. It's not, as you say, we're going to hit this mark and your work's done, you might have to actually change your path during that strategy because more regulations come on the market or, Different suppliers have different capabilities, it's going to be a constantly evolving process. But I think underlying it, and you use this word a couple of times, is the mindset. And I think this is the conversation that we still need to be driving, is to truly achieve a circular economy. We are prioritizing, rethinking, reducing, reusing, and then recycling. I don't think the consumption conversation is strong enough at the moment. so we've really got to look at, how do we address those over consumption habits? How do we get back to really valuing the resources that we use? It breaks my heart when I'm in the city and you're walking around after lunchtime and the bins are just overflowing and, coffee cups and Salad bowls are just left on the floor next to the bin because there's no room left for them to go. it's just, I think, how do we get to a point where this is Okay, no, okay, because I personally don't think it's okay. But, it's just it's this habit and it's engraved in this culture of convenience. And I think that's something that, yeah, we really need to just be continuing to drive. And I think that's where hopefully things like, EPR can really come into effect. if you lean into those aspects.
Cory Connors:One of the biggest things, Brody has taught me so far in our short time co-hosting, is that, sustainability is very similar to marketing. I love how you said that. you don't say, we marketed, we're done . No. you're and I talked about this on stage and at London Packaging, we can, people are like, yeah. That's it. I'm like, shout out to Brody. cause sustainability is the same way. You don't just say, Oh, we're sustainable now because we've got 30 percent PCR and we're going to check that box and we're done.
Pippa Corry:Yeah.
Cory Connors:No, this is a journey. It's a long journey. It's a winding road. Yeah.
Pippa Corry:Yeah. I think it's, I think it's the, what next, what's next, but it's also the, how it's the level of. substantiation and data that we need to truly make sustainability claims. if you go through, we've obviously got the ACCC here in Australia. If you go through those principles of greenwashing, you only have to look at a few, brands in the supermarket to think, let's do this. Great. so you've really got to be clear and, have that data to really back up those, those messages because yeah, there's a huge amount at stake from a legal, but also, brand reputation as well.
. Brodie Vander Dussen:And I think that can be very daunting for brands and packaging designers and, procurement people. Even thinking about not only the goals and how like. there's never going to be that finish line. I think that can feel overwhelming, but I think that there's so much opportunity for creativity and innovation. And this is where the designers really get to thrive and shine. And when they are well supported with partners like Filo and Co. Orora is a great example too of packaging suppliers that really can be a true partner in that conversation and helping that innovation move forward, that they feel supported in that. And they also feel like that goal, the milestones are achievable and they're not afraid of continuing to go. They're not going to be burnt out by 2025, 23, I think that supports huge and how we continue the fight rather than. I let's take like an afternoon and take a deep breath and feel good about ourselves, but let's keep going, there's room for celebration.
Pippa Corry:There's absolutely room for celebration. I think you've got to go where the energy is and really look at your current areas of influence and, start to make progress and traction because then that builds momentum and confidence. have that long term strategy and know that you've got some bigger things that you're working towards and, setting up the stones to, to tackle those. But get some quick wins under your belt because you've then got that to celebrate and communicate to say, hey, this is what we've done. And that inspires other people and gets them on board. And then, you very quickly see the kind of, yeah, ripple effect through, through that. and some of these challenges are very big and complex. So it's not about, a designer or a design agency fixing all the problems. It's not, it's having the awareness and the capability and the knowledge to be part of the conversation and use the skill sets to your advantage. creators are inherently problem solvers by, by nature, we're great at, really tackling those difficult challenges and coming up with new ways of thinking things. So I think, That's just such a huge opportunity for the design industry, for sure.
Cory Connors:thank you so much, Pippa. This has been awesome. you're a great guest. You're an inspiration, to, to Minnie and the industry, including me. what's the best way for us to get in touch with you if we want to work with you? Yeah,
Pippa Corry:absolutely. you can reach out by my website. would love to connect with you on LinkedIn. keep you across some stories that are coming up, in Australia. and Instagram as well. So yeah, we're obviously based down in Sydney, but we work with agencies and brands all around the world. So if you've got a big packaging conundrum, then please reach out. Be happy to help you.
Cory Connors:Great. Thank you so much.
Pippa Corry:Thanks. Thank you so much.
