The Davos of Packaging! Marika Knorr of CCL about The Sustainable Packaging Summit in Amsterdam

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What is the Davos of Packaging?
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What is CCL and why are labels so valuable to the supply chain?
beverage@CCLIND.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/marika-knorr/

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Transcript

Cory Connors: 0:31

Welcome to Sustainable Packaging with Cory Connors. Today's guest is my friend Knorr, the Head of Sustainability at CCL Label. How are you?

Marika Knorr: 0:42

Good. Hi. Nice to connect again and nice to pursue again.

Cory Connors: 0:47

Yeah, really excited about this and very interested in the sustainability initiatives that your company has, the innovations they've created. It's very impressive, but let's talk about you first. Let's talk about your background. How did you get into packaging and labels?

Marika Knorr: 1:05

Okay, before I get into that, maybe just talking to me in Cologne, Germany tonight. for those of you who don't know Cologne, we are the capital of the Kölsch, which tastes like very different than the Kölsch that I've tasted in the United States. States. we are the home of carnival. So we've celebrated type of Mardi Gras, which is like really well known. And we have the, the largest cathedral in the world. So that would be a couple of reasons to swing by Cologne at some point. so speaking about myself, I have a background in corporate communications. I actually studied English, German and history and was aiming to become a journalist when I was very young. back then they were actually getting rid of editors because they were going from paper to online. So, there wasn't a lot going on. So I decided to, Try the corporate world and found that corporate communications was like a very good match. because it's like the newspaper of the company, you get to talk to everybody, you get to learn about all kinds of interesting things going on in the company. And that's something that I really liked. So I started out in a big chemical company in Cologne. Then moved into packaging when I joined Consencia Flexibles, it's a flexible packaging company and worked in Vienna for a while. Until then, I was asked to join CCL Label, which I have been working for the last four and a half years.

Cory Connors: 2:27

I love that analogy of corporate communications being the newspaper of the company. That's brilliant. And it makes perfect sense to me. Yeah. Well done. That's cool. So, what is your role there as the head of sustainability? you're focusing on innovations. You're reporting to the community what you've accomplished. How does that work?

Marika Knorr: 2:49

Right. So, my official title is head of communications and sustainability. I think it was a pretty good idea when they were looking for somebody to actually look for somebody who could combine both because, sustainability, as you will know, out of all people is such a complex topic that it does need a lot of explanation. And you need to take a very complex topic and make it simple and easy for people to understand just as you have to make recycling easy, for example, but you also have to make the communication easy because there's a lot Let's say I'm conflicting information out there, a lot of mixed messaging. So it's really important to have somebody who can break it down, which is like part of what I do. another important aspect of what I do is I do all the networking. So I do the communication, the community management of our CCL and networking partners. So, we collaborate along the whole value chain and the, in the U S, APR, for example, which most of the listeners will know. And, because we believe, that all these networking is essential to actually build. The sustainability, the sustainable packaging value chain. I personally have a global role and I love it because it's very interesting to see sustainability and packaging and different cultures. because not only is the legislation, which is driving sustainable packaging, essentially very different in other parts of the world, but also, for example, the packaging itself. So, when I talk to my, my colleagues around the world, it's really interesting to understand what, what the cultural differences in packaging actually are. So, I'll just give you a quick example. Because in the U S if I go to a supermarket and stand in front of the beer aisle, all of the labels and packaging is amazing because the ultimate goal is to stand out on the shelf, differentiate for marketing, have a really nice appeal, appeal to like certain types of buyers. But, and I just had a little example with me here in Cologne that is like very different because these are typical Kolsch bottles. And these are competitors and you can see that they actually look pretty much alike. The color of the bottle is the light, the shape of the label is even the colors are pretty much the same that they are using. And one reason for the brown bottle is a good one. It's because we use a pool bottle. It's a returnable bottle. Yeah. So all the brands went in together and decided on a bottle and not everybody's participating, but most, are, and so, you have this like reusable system where you return the bottle to the shop and then they refill it and they bring it back to the store. So that's positive, but it also leads to interesting enough, not a lot of differentiation at the point of sale, and you would think that they would differentiate through the label, but that's something that. I don't know. It hasn't really happened over here. another cultural difference that also has a connection to sustainability, for example, is that shrink sleeves, often have a perforation, but in 99 percent of the countries, nobody really takes them off. So you have, a very low percentage of people actually separating the shrink sleeve and the package, the rigid packaging, but in Japan. Interestingly, you have a very high percentage of people taking it off because they have a very, let's say a very, they gravitate towards detail. So that is something that, is very unique about Japan. maybe one last example. I just recently visited my, my, colleagues in Chile and they told me that, the Chilean wine industry, that they sell a lot of wine into China, for example, and they put different labels on those bottles. Because the Chinese have a preference for red and gold. So they really choose a different label design to export the bottles, although it's the same line. So these are just like little examples to show you, that the world of packaging and labels can be very exciting.

Cory Connors: 6:49

I agree 100 percent and you're exactly right. The cultural differences have such a huge impact on how we package items for where we sell them. And, I'm so impressed with the German people and how they have innovated in the reusable space and really shown us, the rest of the world, how it's possible to have a reuse or a pool program. Like you've mentioned, that makes sense for a community of. Brewers or companies. that could be cider. It could be, lots of different items in those bottles. That's, the same bottle for everybody. But like you said, that's what makes labels so important. So can you talk to us about. How are labels different on these reusable bottles to use a different adhesive? So it comes off easier.

Marika Knorr: 7:42

Yeah. So when developing labels, you basically have to look at the life cycle of the whole packaging. So what's going to happen to it? You know what happens with it in recycling or in this case? And, if you look at washing and filling lines of professional industrial washing and filling lines, they usually operate at the same temperature in general, globally. There are a couple of differences in Scandinavia. The temperatures tend to be a little bit lower, but in general, it's And I looked this up, it's 160 degree Fahrenheit for glass bottles. so you want to adapt the label so that it actually detaches during that process. So as soon as it hits that hot water, it needs to detach. Because, we often get this question by customers for, so for example, if you look at wine, they have that ice bucket test and that's in the U S that's like the Holy grail. So nothing, they won't put anything on a wine bottle or in a beer bottle that doesn't. pass the ice bucket test, which by the way, is very different in Germany because, these bugs that I just showed you, if you put them into your bathtub for a party, all the labels will be floating up in the water later. So it's just I don't know. It's not as important, but the ice bucket test, we had a lot of people asking us if the wash off labels, the labels that attach, will come off in the ice bucket and of course not. Because they detach at a very high temperature, so you won't, unless you put them into boiling water, they wouldn't detach.

Cory Connors: 9:05

That's a fascinating thing to think about is the full life cycle of the item and how people will use it. The consumer experience is still so important in this process. Yeah, very good point. So I wanted to talk to you about the Sustainable Packaging Summit in Amsterdam. you'll be there. You're one of the sponsors of the event, the Packaging Europe team and Tim Sykes put on an awesome show. Can you tell us about how that partnership that you have came about and what your expectations are for the event?

Marika Knorr: 9:40

Yeah. So, the event in Amsterdam is nicknamed the Davos of sustainable packaging, and I think pretty much rightly. So, I go to a lot of sustainable packaging events and this one stands out a lot. I've had a good relationship with packaging Europe for the last couple of years, even in my previous company, because I think that they touch a lot of, consumers. Brands, but also, the whole supply chain and the content is consistently good. So we participated, last year, we decided to participate as a sponsor for the first time. we had the booths there and, there were about, 700, participants, which is a pretty huge turnout for an event like that. The location was excellent in the middle of Amsterdam, very well organized, but Above all, the most important thing is that the content and the networking was excellent.

Cory Connors: 10:34

Agreed. will you explain what, I've heard this before, but will you explain what DeVos means?

Marika Knorr: 10:39

Sure.

Cory Connors: 10:39

Yeah.

Marika Knorr: 10:40

so the World Economic Forum, where all the leaders and everybody who's important and powerful, in politics, but also economy, comes together in DeVos once a year. And so this is like the equivalent for what

Cory Connors: 10:54

you're saying is it's a huge deal and it's a very kind of a who's who in packaging. Is that what I'm hearing? Yeah, I agree. 100%. it was, Almost elegant. It was beautiful. just very well done. The team there does, puts on an incredible event with so much wisdom and knowledge in the room, two or three, three stages, I believe. And, Highly, very much worth the time and money to go to that show. I recommend it.

Marika Knorr: 11:25

Especially since you just mentioned there were a lot of American visitors, coming over, which is also superb because then you get the mix and we even had a lot of our American customers being there so I could connect with them. So it's just like a really nice international environment.

Cory Connors: 11:42

Yeah, well said, you don't have to come across the pond to, to see, your customers that way. yeah, that's a really important point. I like that. I met people from all over the world. It's interesting for me to, to go to Europe and see so many Americans. I, it was, it was good, quite an event and can't wait for it. That'll be in November. I think it's the 12th and 13th of November. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. Looking forward to that. So I think you can sign up for that. I'll put a link, in the show notes of, packaging Europe's website. I think it's just packaging Europe. com. but what are you looking forward to at the event? Will you be speaking or we have a booth?

Marika Knorr: 12:23

so both, this time we, we added a speaking slot, and, yeah, I'm very much looking forward to that because I think people still perceive the label as a very small part of the packaging, which is true. But if you look at a overall view of what the packaging consists of and think about design for recycling or eco design, I think how you call it often. you need to consider all parts of the packaging. So if you take a bottle, for example, you need to consider the rigid bottle itself, be it like PT or glass or aluminum. then you need to consider the cap, and you also need to consider the label because, and I think this is a popular example, which is often used, but putting a paper label on a PET bottle, for example, will reduce the chance of this bottle ever getting. Recycled back into a new bottle. The same with Petri sleeves, for example. So this is like very technical, but you can do like a lot of mistakes. So, I'm looking forward to draw some, shed some light on a small yet significant part of the packaging.

Cory Connors: 13:27

And I agree a hundred percent. It's. totally significant and important to the value chain of the packaging, especially for reuse. And I wanted to talk to you about that, Heineken label that you showed me, when we were together last, was that at circularity or an SPC event? I don't remember. I've been to quite a few shows this year.

Marika Knorr: 13:48

That's right. That's right.

Cory Connors: 13:49

Yeah. It was, it was really a neat demonstration that you were doing with the, Water at the correct temperature and showing how the label came off Can you talk to us about that Heineken label and why it's so innovative?

Marika Knorr: 14:01

So this label has actually we call it. It's our wash off technology And it has actually been in the market for a very long time in markets that have had reusable bottles As we talked about for glass for a very long time. So this was developed Together with several beverage companies many years ago What? By our team, actually the eastern part of Germany. It's very small team, but very knowledgeable. And the important thing here is that you needed to adjust the teaser so that it actually gets activated when you hit the hot water and washing the bottles after use. then another important feature of it is that it has a built in shrink. So what actually happens is if the label hits hot water, it starts to roll itself up, it shrinks, and it pulls itself off the bottle. So this really helps. getting it off nice and clean without any residue on the bottle. when you try to take off a sticker, sometimes it's like really difficult. so this like washes off nice and clean. And then last but not least, it's important that you don't lose any ink. So you don't want to contaminate the washing water because you're dealing with like food grade bottles in there. So we have a special printing technique where we print the inks between the substrate and the adhesive. So it's locked in and it can't bleed into the water.

Cory Connors: 15:27

I think that is indicative of the Europeans being ahead of the game. And showing the rest of the world how to be more sustainable with packaging. so again, great job on that. And thank you for leading the way with that wisdom. are you seeing that trickle down into other markets?

Marika Knorr: 15:48

Yeah, so, first of all, we developed new variants because we saw the need for, lower wash off temperature version, which we just released into the Scandinavian market. then we have another version that we developed for PET bottles because we see that most returnable systems won't only be in glass bottles because of the weight. But might also be in rigid P. T. Bottles. So that's why together with the big developer of these rigid P. T. Bottles, we developed matching label detaches also the lower temperature because P. T. Bottles are generally washed at the lower temperature. and we see that trickling down into, so maybe one example, food, for example, so, now you can have a lot of delivery services as well in Hong Kong, for example, that, delivers pizzas and returnable boxes. So, these all need to be labeled. And these are like extra, let's say, add on, drop in, possibilities for our labels, how you can use them. It doesn't have to be on glass. It can be on like any type of packaging.

Cory Connors: 16:53

Wow. I had no idea that they had a reusable pizza box. That makes a lot of sense. the, why can't you reuse them over and over again? put a liner in there and a wash off label. that's awesome. Very exciting. Well, anything else you want to talk about before we, end the show here?

Marika Knorr: 17:13

I was just thinking, I think we touched, upon most of the points that we wanted to discuss. I think I just want to underpin. that. You always need to look at the label individually for each type of packaging that you want to decorate, right? that's what we always start with. if a customer comes to us and says, I have this bottle. We always ask them, what is it made of? It's made of glass. Is it, PT bottle one way, PT, and then we go from there. And then you also always have to take into the account, what does the customer want to achieve? Because we have customers who want to reduce, we have customers who want to, improve recycling. We have customers who want to lower their CO2 footprint. And, you have like different types of solutions that be it like bio based labels or labels with recycled content. Those would all be typically for a low carbon footprint. then the, let's say labels. that our sleeves that improve recycling would be like our floatable solutions because it works very well with the P. T. Receptive process. so you know, those are all things to consider and also things we will be happy to help with. If you're not sure what type of label to put on your wonderful packaging.

Cory Connors: 18:24

an exciting time in the world of packaging to hear companies like Coca Cola saying 25 percent of their packaging will be reusable or refillable. This is a total change, and we're going to need to accommodate that with these packaging solutions that, Are able to handle that kind of, volume and that kind of a life cycle. It's totally different than, just hope, put it out in the market and hope it gets recycled. No, we want to collect these. We want to reuse them, refill them, and make sure that label comes off easily. So we can put a different, drink in there or product or whatever the case may be. Yeah. Very excited.

Marika Knorr: 19:04

No, I agree with you. this is something that I really do love being in the industry at the moment is that you can make a difference. And whereas, maybe 10 years ago, I wasn't in the packaging industry, but, it got so exciting now. There's something new all the time, new developments coming out. And it's good to be a part of turning or going from a linear system to a circular system. That's pretty exciting.

Cory Connors: 19:28

Well said and very, perfect way to end the show. I can't wait to see you in Amsterdam, uh, very much looking forward to that sustainable packaging summit with the packaging Europe team, November 12th and 13th, if you haven't signed up and you're listening, do it today, it's worth the trip and it's a very valuable experience, like you were saying the DeRose of packaging. So thank you, Marika, really appreciate your wisdom and, your time today. Thank you.

Marika Knorr: 19:55

Yeah, thank you very much. Have a good day. Bye