Madison Wright / Pentatonic

https://www.linkedin.com/in/madison-wright123/

How can a company be more circular overall? 
What is Madison and her team doing to help our planet? 
Why did growing up in the Northwest affect her outlook? 

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Transcript

Cory Connors: 0:31

Welcome to Sustainable Packaging with Cory Connors. Today's guest is Madison Wright. She is a project lead at Pentatonic and is currently in Seattle, but is based in London. How are you, Madison?

Madison Wright: 0:44

Doing very well. Thank you so much for having me, Corey. It's really a pleasure.

Cory Connors: 0:47

It was great to meet you at Circularity, this, recently in Chicago. And, when We connected, I thought, oh, well, I have to have her on the podcast because this is really interesting what we're talking about. So let's talk a little bit before we get into that. Let's talk about your background. How did you get into packaging and, how'd that go?

Madison Wright: 1:06

Yeah. so I've been, Interested in sustainability for ages. and I think just growing up in Seattle and being around nature and really feeling connected to the mountains and the water that always helps. but yeah, I did my master's in Sweden, so I was doing environmental management and policy cause I really wanted to, have that policy background, but also be able to action things quickly with businesses. Cause I felt like that was really important. Where a lot of exciting things were happening. so for me personally, I wanted to be in the action and really help businesses in real time. so that was very important to me. yeah, through my journey with pentatonic, I've been with the company now for 3 years. And so working in a lot of different spaces, we have our fingers in a lot of pies. So we work with. Fashion food and beverage packaging, obviously being a large part of that. and so a lot of the projects that I've touched, mainly have been in R and D and just really pushing the envelope to see, what new materials could we be using? How can we envision these systems to be more circular and less linear? And what does that look like for businesses? Not just, ideology, wouldn't that be great, but what are the real actions that they can be taking so that, they're, financially feasible, because that's obviously a huge one for us. We don't want to just pitch things that are crazy expensive and not very feasible. So for us, it's really all about that action and helping these big brands transition.

Cory Connors: 2:29

Well, I don't want to say people from the Northwest are the best people, but I would, I do want to say that I understand why you are so interested in sustainability growing up in the Northwest. Like me, I grew up just a few hours south of you and in Portland, Oregon, and it's a different vibe here. It's a different mindset where people want to recycle. They are willing to, do things that are strange to others, to be more sustainable, compost piles in their, in our yards. And, so I totally understand. And it just made me feel good about. us in the Northwest. So well, well done. Yeah. Good for you. Thank you for making us look good out there in the world. So let's talk more about Pentatonic. it's a, advisory group. It's a, what exactly, is it a packaging company? tell me, tell us more.

Madison Wright: 3:23

Yeah, definitely. so our main goal is really, how can we help a circular transformation for these big brands? so that looks a bit different, across our portfolios. So we really are bread and butter is all about. material life cycle management. and so we have a, two pronged approach. So typically, we have a discovery phase where we're, just getting to know a brand we're reviewing their data. We're really digging into the details to figure out what they need and where we can best support them because I think sometimes. Brands have an idea of what, will make the biggest impact. But, we think instead of doing XYZ that the most impact, the most savings can maybe be from, weight reduction or, something else that they haven't thought of yet. So the first kind of part is usually us getting to know their business really well. And then it kind of pivots into that. Okay. The action behind it, let's create those supply chains for you. If it's an R and D project, it's, what partners do we have on the ground where we can be testing different materials coming up with new formulations? and then it's building that supply chain. So we really. take on that if it's a take back program, if it's new packaging, if it's, a new circular model of you want to refill something instead of just recycle it, how can we make that a reality for you and connect all those parts? So it's as easy as possible for brands to just sign on and get approval. so a lot of that is. Textiles, it's plastic, it's, wood based. we're working across a lot of different, spaces within materials because we want to see what cool materials are out there and really elevate some of these smaller companies that are doing really cool stuff. But maybe they don't have that connection to the Legos, the Burger Kings, the L'Oreal's that we do. So it's this, we're bringing people together in a really interesting way. so that's we have that. Consulting side that helps build on to, the really technical stuff and that's all available through our platform. So we essentially have a tool where you can look at different materials. You can track, the take back program. So a lot of. What's very important to us is transparency, right? Cause I think a lot of times a product, goes out into the world and it's, put somewhere and we don't really know where, and we don't know how it's getting from A to B. So for us, we really wanted to just a dashboard that any brand can log in and say okay, I know that, my shampoo is here and it's going here and it's going to be this at this point. You know what I mean? So it's making it a very clear process. everyone's on the same page. Which I think is really great.

Cory Connors: 5:51

and it's exciting that it's not just packaging that it's you're looking at all of the materials And I think that's a real lesson for the people listening is don't just look at packaging But look at your raw materials look at your fabrics look at the materials that you're using to build your products are those circular? And, I think that's the next step here in sustainability and circularity is, not just packaging, because packaging has made a lot of advancements, but, so have, textiles and raw materials. And, I hear stories of people using recycled milk jugs to make clothing and, and water bottles to make clothing. And, that it's important that we use this raw material, again, and again,

Madison Wright: 6:42

And I think too, what is really cool about our team is I think a lot of times big brands are very siloed. you have your production people, you have your marketing team. And, since we have in house engineers and designers, it's really interesting to push brands to say, Oh, have you thought of redesigning it in this way? So it's easier to disassemble and recycle or make it more circular, make it reusable like these kinds of things. So it's really interesting to have that dynamic of the in house team, really having both of those sides to work together. Push the boundaries because I think that's where it's exciting to come into a new brand and poke holes in their thinking and, ask, Oh, can you do this? Can you do it this way? And sometimes that's very scary. And I think a hard thing to, propose and it's. Yeah. It's daunting, I think, as a task of going from this linear model that everyone knows to a circular one, because there's so many unknowns. And so we're trying to make, reduce that stress and say it's okay. Like we've got this for you. We can make it easy and make it financially feasible. so yeah, it's a very interesting space to be in a lot of moving parts. Right. So yeah.

Cory Connors: 7:47

And to be bold and to make big statements like let's think about this differently and let's look at these, ideas in a, with a different light and take a step back and say, can we do this differently? Can we be better here? and maybe it doesn't cost more money. Maybe it's actually less costly because you're reusing things or, you're finding a source that's local instead of, across the world, things like that are, they get me so excited. So it's, well done. Good to hear you saying that stuff. let's talk about extended producer responsibility for a little bit, because I think what you're talking about goes right into the, the scope of that. how is, how are you, preparing companies for EPR.

Madison Wright: 8:30

Definitely. I think, EPR is such a big hot topic right now. I think it's actually very exciting to see how far it's come even in the last five years. and I think we're starting to get to a point where brands are starting to panic a little bit of, you could get away with business as usual. And now, A lot of EPR is coming in very quickly and already, happening in the EU and within the U. S. as well. so yeah, just a brief highlight of extended producer responsibility, just being shifting that focus from the consumer being responsible for the disposal to have the producer be responsible. So again, I think that's a huge. Element of what you put out into the world you're responsible for. I think that's a really great mind change, like shift that brands need to have. and so there, yeah, there are a lot of components that are really key in that. And to my point earlier of design being a large part of that, of, how can we. Design this to be compostable design it to be recyclable, as well as being compliant with the different regulations. we're seeing a lot of recycled content being promoted. you have to have 30 percent or higher, that kind of thing. and so we, in our services, try to make sure that we're preparing brands for the future and making sure that it has that, recycled content in it. But again, for us, it's like, how can Recycling isn't the end all be all for us, right? It's how do you capture the materials that you're putting out there? And so that take back component of, already separating things out. we're seeing in France with the textile recycling, you have to separate bin because it does. I think the. The kind of the visual that helps us sometimes explaining it is if you're moving houses, you're not throwing everything into one giant box and to repack it from there, you categorize it. Right? So like, why wouldn't you apply the same tools to your textiles to your plastic bottles, all of that sort of thing. So I think EPR helps in that way of let's separate things out earlier so that we're not. Dealing with this mess at the end, and that's a huge component of it, right? Because if you know exactly what you're getting, that really helps in the process and making it, easier for everyone really, and more affordable because you're not spending all this time sorting and all of that stuff. yeah, that's definitely the key component. So yeah, a lot of kind of things within that, but I think the key components for us that we focus on is, okay, what does that take back look like? How do you. Make the, customer experience, not something that's, boring and tedious, can you make it fun? Is there an element to it? That, gives financial compensation. So people feel motivated to do it. and then, yeah, in the long term, it's all about. Recapturing that material that you're creating. financially that makes more sense too. Right. So there are a lot of parts within that. I realized that it's true.

Cory Connors: 11:15

It's

Madison Wright: 11:15

general, it's

Cory Connors: 11:17

huge. It's a huge topic. And for many years, it was enough to just say, we're going to be more sustainable. We promise. And here's, just trust us. And in 2025, we'll show you the results. But now companies are saying. Oops, missed some of these targets and so to have extended producer responsibility say, here are your targets. And this is what you're going to do is a shift in thinking of, it's, I'm rarely for government stepping in to, to help us, but this is a situation where it makes sense. We need to get on the same page. It levels the playing field, because if 1 company was doing it, and it was costing them more money. They're going to be less profitable than the other company who's not doing it and using virgin materials or whatever they were doing that is less costly. So this is a way to, to make us all better. And, all boats rise together. Right. So let's get on those boats together and make this thing happen.

Madison Wright: 12:16

Definitely. I think it is so tricky too, because there's, especially like just looking at the textile example, so different countries are doing different things too. So I feel like for brands, it's very overwhelming. I love, am I going to get find X here and find, more here? Do I just, focus on brands or do I do sweet, I think they're like with this new, I totally agree, like rising everyone else is going to be great, but I think that there also needs to be, I don't know, just. Yeah, it's important for experts to be very visible and clear about the expectations and have it be universally understood of what is required because I think there's a lot of confusion still, which is where we're finding a lot of brands of what are we even, what do we need to prepare for? what's the next thing that's going to hit us the hardest. And so I think there's still some tweaks that need to happen. Yeah. Regulation wise of making that all very much the same, but, yeah, it's definitely adding a component of, I think everyone wants to jump on board, but it's like how and when, and what does that look like? So it's a lot of the preparation behind these goals and things that are really starting to hit brands, I think in, in, in a really new way. So yeah, a lot of work to do, but all very exciting and good direction,

Cory Connors: 13:31

well said we've moved from talking about it to doing it.

Madison Wright: 13:34

Yeah, exactly. And I can't, yeah,

Cory Connors: 13:37

exactly that, the next, the next phase we'll be talking about how it went

Madison Wright: 13:43

and,

Cory Connors: 13:43

and looking at, okay, what can we, what can we do to improve? It sounds like your company's really good there. in all phases of, let's talk about it, let's do it. And then let's talk about how it went.

Madison Wright: 13:55

I feel like the pilots are so key and we are just, like it's scary, but you have to start somewhere and you're going to learn so much, even from a small pilot, right. And how consumers are interacting with it. And it's just, it's so important to just start, right. I think that's our main thing. It's We at this point in time that, we should have been piloting ages ago. Right. So it's like action. Let's just try it and see how we, how far we can get. Cause I think it's moving in that direction. So it's about if you're a brand who can, show off that you're a leader in this space. I think that's so critical at this point, to just really get that consumer recognition and have the financial buy in. And yeah, it's all. Wrapped up in one thing, but yeah, very important.

Cory Connors: 14:39

That's an excellent point. Consumers care so much about this That they are they're gravitating towards brands that are taking action first so yes, it's risky To be the 1st, but it's also that risk comes with rewards, which can be increased sales, loyal customers because you mentioned circular packaging, refill, reuse, that kind of thing, talk about loyalty program, reusable packaging. Come on. That's amazing. it's they've committed to you long term with this, container, right?

Madison Wright: 15:16

Absolutely. And it's interesting too, because the, you think of the milk man, like that concept is not revolutionary or new, right? people were doing that ages ago. you put your milk. Packaging, glass right there and they pick it up and clean it and refill it. And so that concept and people buying into that is possible. we've seen examples of that every day. So it's just about, I think, and that's the exciting part of working with big brands is they have that power and that influence to really go for it and make changes and change those behaviors. But I think it needs to be. Very thought out, and easy as possible. You don't want to create friction with customers. You want it to be simple and you want them to come away from that experience being like, wow, that was easy or how far, like you want this kind of like fun and positive experience instead of, oh, I have to, collect all my bags and take them to X, Y, Z. you want it to just be, can I put it on my front porch? Can I dump it in the, Oh, box. Can I take it to a store when I'm on the way out? Like just, getting as many points of contact as possible so that more and more people do it as what really excites us. So

Cory Connors: 16:22

yeah. User experience that is, and ease of use and simplicity and, It shouldn't have to be a major lifestyle switch to be more sustainable. It should be something we just, Oh, this is one slightly different thing that I do, with this item. yeah, totally agree with you a hundred percent. I wanted to talk to you a little bit about packaging shows cause we did meet at circularity 24. do you, How do you feel about packaging shows? What, first question. Second question, will you go to London Packaging Week? Because you're based there. And, Paris Packaging Week, because it's near you.

Madison Wright: 17:03

Yeah, London Packaging Week is definitely on the agenda. I think packaging shows are. Really interesting, right? Like we, I think we should be getting together and we should be learning from each other and sharing those experiences and learning best in show really, what's out there, what's upcoming. Cause all of that is just really important to, I think having a united front really as an industry and being able to go to brands and being like, this is the new thing that's upcoming. this is where we. You need more R and D. This is what we would suggest. I think all of that is just so important from learning from each other and being in the same room. I think during COVID, we realized like what the power of really being with people and making those connections and understanding and asking questions in person does really make a difference for these kinds of things. So definitely. Yeah.

Cory Connors: 17:50

It's nice to be back and be able to meet in person again, isn't it? I missed it. It was hard. Yeah, it's hard for

Madison Wright: 17:58

look what beautiful thing came out of it. Yeah, right. That's

Cory Connors: 18:03

right. This, totally agree. There were a lot of positives that came from that very extremely bad situation. But so what's next for you? You got, you're hanging out with family. Now you've got, heading back to London soon.

Madison Wright: 18:16

I am. I'm currently here for a wedding for one of my cousins. That's very exciting. and yeah, nice to be in the Seattle sunshine because London was raining. But yeah, back in August. And, yeah, ready for all of the craziness to begin again after my holidays. But, yeah, it's going to be fun. Great.

Cory Connors: 18:35

Well, so much, Madison. How do people get in touch with you and Pentatonic? Pentatonic.

Madison Wright: 18:40

Yeah. so my LinkedIn, just Madison Wright Pentatonic, you can find me there, or just my email madison. wright at pentatonic. com happy to get in touch, have coffee chats, learn more about your company, what you're doing. So feel free to reach out.

Cory Connors: 18:54

Thank you so much.

Madison Wright: 18:55

Thank you. Really appreciate that. Corey. It was very fun to chat with you.

Cory Connors: 18:59

I agree.