Sustainable Packaging
Industry Experts discuss all the new materials and ways that packaging can be more sustainable and how we can do our parts to help recycle and reuse. Sustainable Packaging is and will continue to affect us all in our daily lives. We have lots of fun and get down to the real data of what's working to help our planet!
Sustainable Packaging
How2Recycle Announcements and Event! Paul Nowak and Brandi Parker
https://how2recyclesummit.com/series/how2recycle-summit-2024-Home/landing_page
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Welcome to Sustainable Packaging with Cory Connors. Today's guests are two of my very good friends and two very impressive people in this industry. I'm honored to be here with Mr. Paul Nowak, the Executive Director of GreenBlue, and my friend Brandi Parker with Parker Brands. She's the founder of that great company. How are you both today? Oh
Brandi Parker:my God, so good. Corey, this is so exciting. Thank you for having us.
Cory Connors:I'm honored
Paul Nowak:doing well, like I was saying before we started, the fact that while it's hard work, we all get to work in this space. it's hard to not have a good day.
Cory Connors:It is yes, I agree. This is, it's not an easy job, but it's a, it's an exciting and it's a rewarding job, especially the work that you 2 are doing in this space. It's very impressive and it's, it's making a huge impact. Brandy and I were speaking about that before you got on Paul, about how she's honored to, to feel this large impact that this, this work does and global impact. Really? We're going to talk a lot about the, how to recycle program, which, today is, It's taking over in a very positive way. you're going to see that all over the community of packaging and, it's informing consumers on what to do and how to do it with the packaging after they've used it, which to me is, dear, near and dear to my heart, because this is the biggest thing I get asked all the time is, can I recycle this? And what do I do with this? And, should I buy this kind of stuff or that kind of stuff? And, well done to you both. I've got some very good questions here that your team has put together for me, to ask you because, They're really smart. And, so I want to ask you this. let's start with you, Paul. The how to recycle program has experienced significant growth. I think that's a huge understatement in the last five years. can you share how it's involved to meet this growth and what kind of projects are underway to support this?
Paul Nowak:Yeah, absolutely. so currently we're on over 800 brands as members. So just let that sink in for a second. And that wasn't my work, right? that wasn't even How 2 Recycle's work. That was collective work. In the world to make this happen, and I always have to tell the story, right? if you go back 12 years ago, the sustainable packaging coalition with a group of its members, some really large brands and converters sat down and said, can you believe there's not an on pack instruction that just clearly tells a consumer. What to do with this after they purchased it. and that group came together and rallied around this idea and how to recycle. It wasn't even called how 2 recycle it was a year and a half project to say, can we even do this? they pulled it off how to recycle was born. And it started slow, Corey, really like it was, the first 2 or 3 years, it's test and learn and rightfully so. But to your point, between the last 5 years, getting up to over 800 brands and so brands are the only ones who can be the main member because they own really that real estate on the pack with their graphics to have over 800 brands has been amazing. we try to keep it very easy point of entry so that brands are doing the right thing, but it's come with some challenges. And, as we look at the evolution, we can only control what we can control at how to recycle. And We are not making policy. We follow policy. those who don't know on your podcast, the word recyclable is a government term and the FTC green guides have the most robust language. today that's changing, but the most robust language around it. So how to recycles assessment for a label is really based on that FTC green guides. With 1 edition, which is called policy. So what are different policies that are happening? outside of just huge growth, what we have to think about is the recycling infrastructure in the US and in Canada is a living, breathing organism. while many brands and printers would love it to be, like, we've printed it. Once we've created the file 1, I never have to touch it again. I don't have cost of that. That's not the reality we live in from for multiple reasons we can get into later in today's chat. So the way we look at evolution and how to recycle is follow policy follow the FTC green guides. So 1 example of that might be. If something had an access level change across the U. S. so if something that most people always had access to recycling, so curbside recycling in their community, and that went away while we don't control that, the label would have to change. making it more dynamic for a future where policy is impacting that at the state level, or there's different access rates are affecting that. That's mostly what we're working on because we don't want to ever lose this ability that we've gained. we have a certain amount of momentum and Brandy and I talk about this brand equity with the consumer to say, how should this work? We don't want to lose that. And we don't want to lose the trust of it.
Cory Connors:Exactly. Well said very insightful. the community keeps changing and these, these new extended producer responsibility laws are changing what feels to me like daily, but that's because I'm, like you and I'm paying attention and, our community needs to be aware of all of these changes. and you mentioned evolution of that. of the label and the branding. And that's where our mutual friend Brandy here has come in and really taken a leadership role. Brandy, can you tell us about your role and what you've been doing to lead the transition to a more, a newly evolved label?
Brandi Parker:Absolutely. well, I'm only here because Paul invited me. we had a great conversation, I guess it was like over a year ago, Paul. And he was like, I think we need to start a new collaborative. And so we talked about that. And so all of this has been born out of both The packaging design collaborative, and then also just working internally with the how to recycle team. there's a need for it to evolve as Paul just went through like a laundry list of points and there's even more right. but we have to be careful. So the way I've stepped in is. To do this in a really systematic way, we talk a lot about systems design when we're talking about sustainability and in the bigger picture thinking and how that kind of ladders into detail. And so being a careful, but, I would say Ambitious, but careful, way of looking at the refresh, I think has been a real key part. So I've had the privilege of working with, a greater collaborative, which is a group of members of the SPC focused on a particular topic, right? And in this case, it's packaging design and how to recycle. plays a big part in packaging design. Obviously, it's the first, real standardized disposal instruction. And, there's a lot of equity there, as Paul mentioned. so having members being an active part of this refresh, having members actively feeding in on the collaborative level, which is hundreds of people actually in this collaborative, It's amazing because we know that sometimes doing things by committee can be very difficult. Right? But the way that this is structured, the way that the how to recycle team has fed in, it's actually been pretty smooth. I want to knock on wood, about that. But, but, yeah, it's been wonderful. And so my job really has been to guide the design, and, play a partial, hands on executive role there, but also, making sure we're getting feedback, from all the members. And then we just recently did a round of consumer research where we addressed, both the general public as well as membership inside of the SPC to gauge. how much are we speaking to ourselves versus how much are we actually talking to people and making it, very clear what to do. so that's been really, I've learned a lot from that and we're about to go into another round of such. Yeah, here we are.
Cory Connors:Here we are. and we continue to fight, to teach and to explain and to educate and what you two are doing is so valuable for our industry and beyond. it affects all of us. And, anybody that buys food and, anyone that uses, packaging and wants to be sustainable, anybody that cares, I think this is, it's dramatic what's possible here. And, so well done to you and your fellow, designers, Brandy, well done, very exciting what you've accomplished already in such a short time. Really
Brandi Parker:appreciate that. Corey. Yeah, no, it's all due to the membership and just people are really. Enthusiastic about participating in this process, if you can imagine. that part's been pretty great. It's oh, people have lots of energy about this. So let's do it
Cory Connors:Their companies care about it, in big ways, because this is like Paul was talking about. This is going to be standard. This is going to be on, in my opinion, on all items eventually. if all goes as planned. Very exciting.
Paul Nowak:God's ears. We're hopeful. And, just the piggyback, so I, Brandy's so humble, but, like I was so excited to be able to work with her, particularly on this project that I, we are crop pass and cross multiple times, but we really hadn't had a project to work on. So having her lead, this was. Instrumental in a couple ways. So one thing to think about Corey for me that I'd love your audience to hear is we can't be so precious about who are the experts in sustainability. We need all talent at the table. And as you, as we think about of a brand refresh for the how to cycle label, 1 of the things Brandy and I talked about why I thought it was really critical to have someone of her talent in the call was that, from that standpoint. She's bringing a language and a lexicon forward from the design world that we don't always hear in sustainability meetings, right? We don't always hear in environmental meetings. And so having her there. And then inviting members into this process, so we could have done this right behind closed doors and here's your new label. And, in some ways, that's easier. That doesn't make it better. And so I think at the end of the day, having the right person in brandy, the right team with my SPC team to run the collaborative because they know how to run collaboration. But then when we think about theory of change at SPC. The power really is in diverse membership and diverse voice. So bringing that group in, giving them skin in the game to work with someone at Brandy's talent level, to bring life into the brand refresh, those are all like critical components of how we get to our new phase. And I just want to be clear, like there were other ways we could have done it, right? Like we could have just two or three people sit in a room, hire an agency, do it this way. I wanted to try something different. and you're never sure when you try something different, if it's going to work. I am so happy with how it's turning out and the amount of data we're getting from the consumer research on it has been really strong. So kudos to the SPC team, kudos to Brandy and to all our members who are literally busy, but taking hours of time to sit in these meetings and debate the design.
Brandi Parker:Yeah, it is. Yeah, it's amazing how much time people do contribute to this work. and thank you, Paul. I, you brought up a really good point that I do want to reiterate, which is, you did. No, you didn't. which is, And this is something I've been talking about for a while, right? Which is, I feel like so much of my role with anyone I work with is bringing the design conversation into sustainability and or the sustainability conversation into this design because those things aren't fluid yet. Those conversations aren't fluidly moving between those groups. And so that's a big part of what I'm doing anyway. And so this has been such a huge, way to, to bridge those conversations. So I just wanted to reiterate that point. Yeah,
Cory Connors:it's an excellent point. And I think it's important that you mentioned it that way because the design community has been a little bit resistant to some of the changes brought on by sustainability. And, And then on the flip side of that, some of them have been aggressively pushing. So we, what we need to do is meet in the middle and say, we can do both and we can redesign and be aggressive and make progress, together. but let's get on the same page here because I think if we start squirting off in 35 directions, it's going to cause a lot of problems, that, which is the number one complaint I get from my customers is when are these things going to be standardized? When are these things going to. be stick and be the law. And I said, well, that's, in my opinion, I think that's coming soon. it's exciting, but we got to go through the process. We have to, like you said, hundreds or thousands of people involved with these decisions and it affects tens of thousands, if not millions of us. Yeah. Yeah.
Brandi Parker:And all the variables involved to that point, right. just with policy alone, even.
Cory Connors:I think this is an announcement like we, we've got, that, that things are changing for this label and we'll get back to that in a minute here, but we're also gonna have
Paul Nowak:tease it out. Tease it out Corey. Just Yeah.
Cory Connors:we're also gonna have our first how to recycle in-Person Summit in Chicago in October. this'll be, October 2nd and 3rd, which is just after SPC advance, which is September 30th through October
Paul Nowak:2nd.
Cory Connors:so if you're coming to 1, you should come to the other. They're both amazing. but Paul, let's talk about that. Can you give us a preview of what to expect? How 2 recycle 1st ever, event?
Paul Nowak:Yeah, absolutely. So we're we couldn't be more excited to offer it. And so I think the first piece of the puzzle to talk about for the how to cycle summit is so much of what happens with our team at how to cycle is through our platform. So there's really every it's data analysts. It's you don't get to see a person. You don't get to have a discussion. You don't necessarily get to really dig deeper. And so there's been a real hunger in our membership to have more face time. Well, with 800 members now, you can imagine, there's not bandwidth and or funding and we're a nonprofit. To have that level of, face to face with members. What's the answer? Let's start to do a very specific event. That and we're known for our events at Greenblue. Like I selfishly would say, I think as the SPC does some of the best events I've ever been to. I'm not even talking about environmental or sustainability. My team does just an amazing job. So to take that talent. And now apply that to, a member need, which is can we get face to face discussion time, deeper dives into topics, but not a webinar, not another PDF, where it's a real person. This is us answering a member question. So that's really the genesis of where it started and. It is a very different event than the SPC event where the SPC event is going to go through a myriad of topics and go deep in some and be very aspirational and others. The how to recycle is very specifically focused on what is this world of the how to recycle label? 1 of the things I'm really excited about is we're going to have a mock store. Built in the space, so for the 1st time ever as a packaging nerd, it kills me when I can't touch. I'm like, why didn't you bring samples? Should I not be able to touch and feel this package? So we have someone that's partnering with us to set up a mock storefront. so there'll be, you'll have the opportunity to interact with packaging, interact with products. Some of our brands are giving us product with the labels on it so that we can play with it. Our friends at Clemson University are going to be there helping do eye tracking within the store so we can start to see, so it's a very interactive space. And then we will also have the availability for store drop off bins built in so people can start to see. Like how they would react with signage at the store drop off bin. So we have this very interactive space planned and built out, that the members will be able to play with, ask questions. On top of that, we have some fairly large announcements that will be coming out for the 1st time ever at this event. 1 being, we will be showing the final design of the brand refresh for the 1st time ever. That's the 1st time you're going to see it. we're really excited about that. And as a subset of that announcement, we will be showing the finals of the dynamic label. So dynamic label, scannable label will have places where you can scan it built at the space. So all of that is going to happen at the event, but it will be a very specific. If you've been hungry to learn more about how to cycle, maybe you're not even a member yet. This is a place where we're going to answer the question that members have been asking us. And we've been wanting to do this for a long time. to finally be able to do it feels like kind of Christmas morning to me, oh, we're going to, we're going to really be able to do this now.
Cory Connors:It's very exciting and I agree with you. I love samples. I'd love to be able to touch and feel and look at things and see how these new things will interact with the consumer. And, store drop off, I think, is going to be such a key to the future of sustainable packaging. I think, the output from the grocery store, and then the input to back to the grocery store is going to be very circular. very well said. Brandy, I'd like to take a little bit of a step back and say, what are some of the goals that you're trying to accomplish with this refresh on the how to recycle label? What's the team really focusing on?
Brandi Parker:Yeah, Paul just mentioned a couple of them, one of which is the dynamic label, that is a piece of this refresh, and really, that comes down to immediacy of information and the ability for that dynamism. So if things change in the database and the engine behind the label itself doesn't have to be changed. So we walk away from this constant need for, changing plates on press because we know that is, that's problematic. It's expensive, but that's really the future of the label. but the entire system will not relaunch as dynamic. This will be a very specific part of the program. and right now, we've partnered with, the recycling. Partnership who's got that big database that big engine, helping people find things like store drop off, helping people find things like, check locally. Is this recyclable in my area code? more to come on that. And of course, the future of that is, is wide open. It's more of these databases either come back online or come online in the first place, giving people information about where to recycle things, what things can be recycled and so forth. another huge component really is evolving, the look and feel, so it's really like tweaking, can we dig into the details? Can we Pull out more legibility. Can we make it more readable for, larger number of the population? Can we go back and really put a fine tooth comb over what is production friendly? can we, Perhaps evolves some of the symbology. Can we be even clearer in a more immediate way? Because when people she see shapes, and things like that's a more immediate communicator than reading words. It's just biology. So how do we play with that? How do we reorganize maybe some of the hierarchy of information? What do people need to know first? And then, as they read down the label. So there's been a lot of pull it apart and then. Put it back together. So that's really what we've been doing. so my hope when this thing launches and we talk about it at the summit, is that people still recognize it as how to recycle. It doesn't feel very different. It just feels, Ooh, optimized. so that's the feeling we want to evoke, right. It's, Ooh, I didn't know we needed that. Or, I liked it before, but now I really see how it's better. and so those are the things that we're hoping to get. Yeah.
Paul Nowak:And 1 thing I'd add to that Corey is being able to work with someone of Randy's talent, as we've talked through this. like challenging even some of my assumptions about the label and the team's assumption. And the reason we're calling it a brand refresh is as we've challenged them and we saw the data, there is equity in it. We know it's recognized. that didn't have to be true, right? the data could have taken you down a different road and said, no one knows what to say. You can do whatever you want with it. Change it, make it whatever, but that wasn't the case. but we challenged our assumptions. I think with Brandy's guidance. During some of these initial steps to say. Let's just not assume this is working. so 1 of the things, that were that this refresh is answering is also truth and label. Like, when you start to think about the truth and labeling laws, specifically California and chasing arrows. Chasing arrows as an icon as symbology, right? is very important in some ways. And I would agree with truth and labeling has been wildly abused and others. Hello. When you start to think about the chasing labels and how it lives in the outer cycle tile. That was one of the things Brandy and I debated early on we need to have a plan that if. If you go back to what I said at the beginning, how to recycle assesses, we don't write policy. We follow policy. if the law of the land would change, and it says, we don't care what your data says, how to recycle what you can't use this. We needed to be ready for that while that was the problem statement. What Brandy was really smart in doing saying, well, if we're going to do that, let's just look at it. Let's look at it holistically. Let's not just go after that one question. And that's where I think it got really fun for me, to see how consumers react to different things. And one of the things that I think we've been very careful about is we're all talking to each other so much that we're talking to ourself. So we're like, well, people will know this. Like, why would you think that? this person works their chip. They got up here and they want to throw their food away and go to bed. they, not that they don't, that doesn't mean they don't care about the planet. shame based stuff doesn't work, but I think thinking through, what's the right iconography? So I'm excited that, from a business standpoint, we have a plan A and a plan B around Chasing Arrows, but it's much deeper than that from a consideration of long term, what can the label do so that we don't have to keep changing it every few years? We've learned a lot from this. I will put out like my plea, though, from what we've seen from what all the data have shown us the chasing arrows when combined in a messaging hierarchy is the thing recognized most. And I think that's the piece people get confused. On the client side, they're like, they're saying, getting rid of the chasing arrows. The law actually doesn't say that it says it has some caveats in it. And basically what we're, I don't know if we'll win this fight, but if the data shows that the chasing arrows draws the consumer's eye first, and then that the language around it then supports it and it's clear, I, the data would say that's the best way to go. But. Brandy's explored other ways so that we're ready either way. So just from a straight brand exercise, that was really interesting to me to unpack that. And there's a lot of fear in the world where I'm like, what are we going to do next? Hopefully this is going to answer some of those fears.
Cory Connors:Yeah. Very
Brandi Parker:well said. Yeah, the design of that original Chasing Arrows, and I forgot the gentleman's name in the seventies, but he did such a great job. It's it is internationally recognized. Yeah. it is truly iconic. So to, to undertake. really digging into that. that could be a million projects on its own, right? So what we've done is take a real conservative tack to that, knowing that there's a chance we can argue to keep it.
Cory Connors:I remember at SPC event, recently, Dr Hurley and Shannon from quad, we're talking about all the different symbols that we use in packaging to show consumers what to do with the item. Or if it's. Compostable or whatever the thing is. And they said some number about, they did a study that like 67 percent of people didn't even know what those symbols were, had no idea what any of them were except for the chasing arrows. And so that makes sense to me, and I couldn't agree with you both more that we that needs to be a part of this somehow. Maybe it's a newly reimagined, but people understand what we're talking about. Those symbols mean, or they think they do, I get very sad when I see things like a triangle with a number seven on the inside of it. It's now that's, that should be illegal. And it's a
Brandi Parker:problem, isn't it? It's been co opted. Yeah,
Paul Nowak:that's a great, but that's such a great point. Corey, like we as an industry do need to take ourselves and take some accountability for what we've done that's caused a law like this. To feel necessary. I'm not going to be a hand ringer and be like, I can't believe they did this. Of course, look at some of the examples that said, I always say, go to the science, right? you, you don't and this doesn't even have to be sustainability science. This is consumer shopping science. This is behavioral science. That says, if you get them to look, because they're used to that symbol. You will catch them like it's time and attention, right? How fast do they see it? How long do they look at it? And then you have a chance. If you build a symbol, like, how to cycle is done with language around it, or the ability to scan it. To do more, and to me, that's the part we're missing in this conversation. Yes, it shouldn't just float out in space, but even if the chasing girls, they don't fully know what they mean, there's so much data that says it's the most recognizable and it gets them to look. And once you get them to look, it's when I was working with one of my nephews when he was very little, they said, you have to get down to their level. And the 1st thing you have to do before you tell them anything is you have to get them to look at you. you have to get that to me, like the chasing arrows is giving you that moment of them looking at you 1st, then now you can maybe tell them something important. And that to me is not even about sustainability necessary. That there's legit science behind them.
Cory Connors:Very true. Well said Paul. I love that analogy of getting someone's attention. that's what we have to do and advertising and communication. just a couple more minutes here. Very excited to, see you all at advance September 30th through October 2nd, and how to recycle October 2nd through 3rd, both in Chicago, both at the same location. keep that in mind if you're planning that, just 1 hotel makes it easy and we'll see you there. Brandy and Paul, just closing thoughts, remarks.
Paul Nowak:I'll go let Brandy go first.
Cory Connors:All right.
Brandi Parker:Okay. yeah, it's. It's so cool to be a part of this process. I do feel very privileged to be a part of it. it's also nerve wracking, right? It's also this is going to be a lot of eyes on this. but at the same time, like I feel confident in the members that I'm working with, I feel confident in the team, the how to recycle team. these folks know way more than I'll ever know. And. just who's involved how we're doing it. I feel really solid about it. So I'm excited to show it show the effort. It's been almost a year's worth of effort. Exactly. it'll be really cool to, to share that with the wider audience that has PC, and I'll be running around. Like a headless check-in,'cause I've got some crazy talks to do and some workshops. And Paul, I think we're doing a panel thing like we're doing, it's gonna be chockfull of good info also. It's just a, you bigger that get
Paul Nowak:one worth than an SPC Sullivan. But I'll say that.
Cory Connors:I can attest to that. Yeah, your events are incredible and the speakers that you, your team chooses are impressive and provide a lot of insight. Paul, any last thoughts before we call the show?
Paul Nowak:I think the way I would like to close it is this. So 1 of the tenants in our strategy and our vision documents at SBC is this idea of choosing courage over fear. and that's a choice. and so if you're afraid of how the world is changing around you, if you're afraid, Brandy, thank you for being vulnerable and say, I'm a little nervous to show this to the world. that's a normal human thing. And then choose courage. And so what I'm hoping we did today, Corey has shared enough hopefulness of we got you, we have direction here. We know what we're doing that allows your listeners and viewers to choose courage over fear on this topic. So that's where I'd like to leave you with today.
Cory Connors:Well, both for your wisdom and for all that you do in this industry. And, I'm so excited to see you both in Chicago. We'll see you there.
Brandi Parker:Thank you. Thanks, Corey.
