Sustainable Packaging
Industry Experts discuss all the new materials and ways that packaging can be more sustainable and how we can do our parts to help recycle and reuse. Sustainable Packaging is and will continue to affect us all in our daily lives. We have lots of fun and get down to the real data of what's working to help our planet!
Sustainable Packaging
Are you Ready for EPR? Adrian Vannahme (Reclay StewardEdge)
https://reclay-group.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/stewardedge/?originalSubdomain=ca
Are You ready for Extended Producer Responsibility?
Do you know the PPWR is affecting all of Europe?
Is your Data ready?
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This podcast is an independent production and the podcast production is an original work of the author. All rights of ownership and reproduction are retained—copyright 2022.
Welcome to Sustainable Packaging with Cory Connors. Today's guest is Adrian Vannahme the COO of Reclay Steward Edge. How are you, Adrian? Good, Corey. Thanks for having me. This is awesome. I'm excited to have you on. I've, heard good things about your organization, about what you do there. can you tell us a little bit before we get into that? Just where'd you come from before and how'd you get into this?
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure. I've been doing this for about 10 years. my original background is has nothing to do with this. I started off in foreign affairs . Okay. so I used to be a diplomat before, before I joined Brickley, in fact. And, and as a result fell into the whole circular economy space as a, as an accident really. and, but yeah, so I'm originally from Europe. that's where I grew up, moved to Canada about, 10 to 15 years ago now, almost, and, spent some more time across the pond, in between. But, but still have, have spent some time on circular economy and EPR, and we'll talk about that more, but EPR and circular economy issues, both sides of the ocean for, for a few years now. That's great. Well, tell us about, Reclay Steward Edge. What is that? Yeah, so we are, we're EPR experts, extended producer responsibility experts. that's really at the core of what we do. Focus mostly on packaging, though we work on EPR for tires as well. And, there's, there's really two tracks to, to, to the activities that we do. the first and more important and most important one in the North American market is. our consulting arm, so we provide Billy advice to, companies, stakeholders trying to understand. What is how does it work? How do you navigate it once it's in place? how do you make your declarations? How do you make your payments to, produce a responsibility organization? And, and how do you, how do you track the. Really quite rapid developments in the policy landscape around circular economy and properly and understand them properly. And then the 2nd area is where we are a producer responsibility organization ourselves. That's more so in Canada and Europe, but we are a PRO producer responsibility organization for packaging and. 7 countries, and, so take on the compliance requirements for. Producers for their packaging in a number of markets from an active point of view, what that means is we manage the declarations that are coming in. We measure the tonnages. We make sure that your packaging from a consumer perspective gets picked up at the curbside in a properly. educated and designed and, properly, implemented curbside separate collection system, take it to a material, recycling facility or recovery facility where it gets sorted. And then eventually ends up with a recycler so that, the packaging that you put out on the curbside does actually become. a new bottle or a new tray or whatever it is that you, a new cereal box for that matter. So
Cory Connors:I, I have a feeling that the number one question that you get, I'd love to know your insights is, am I a producer? And I think that's what I keep hearing people say, am I a producer? What does that mean? How do I know? And, would you say that's one of the number one questions that you receive? That is,
Speaker 2:it usually comes right after what is this extended producer responsibility thing. What does this mean? What is this? And does it apply to me? Is usually, as you said, the question that follows right after. and yeah, so that's But the, unfortunately the answer is not a clear answer. this is what you are and therefore you're a producer. it varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. And so Europe has their own definitions for it. At least it's getting harmonized across the European market now over the next few years. but in Canada and in the U S it's province by province, state by state. which, causes headaches, of course, for companies that are impacted by this.
Speaker:Yeah, are there any general rules that you could share with us? So people could ascertain if they are
Speaker 2:a producer? Absolutely. So generally you are a producer if you are A brand owner or 1st, importer who puts a product onto the market, a product that is in packaging. So that's the 1st and most basic rule. If you put packaging on the market as that contains a good. Then you are the producer. So I wanna differentiate too, from the packaging manufacturer who is, we get those questions too from, the people that make, packaging, whether they're obligated, they're usually not, or not usually the, they're, they are not obligated. So it is the brand owner, the person that actually puts a product into circulation that is responsible to take care of the management of the packaging. That's, that, that contains the product. so that's, I would say, the fundamental rule. After that, we get into how much you put on the market and whether there's the minimus rules. So whether your revenue is high enough, and whether your tenant that you put onto the market is high enough for you to be obligated, and it gets, unfortunately, even more complex because you have distributors that sometimes are, involved in all of this as well. And don't want to bore you with this, but that's, well, that's what this audience, that's what we're interested in. Fundamentally, that's what this is. And then it gets, like I said, gets into the details.
Speaker:That's awesome. It's, it was honestly a surprise to me because I've been following this for many years. not worried, but concerned that we do the right things as a packaging supplier. Because at Orora Packaging, we do make, lots of different kinds of packaging, corrugated. Point of purchase displays, signage, glass, aluminum, all these kinds of different materials. And to find out that in most situations, we are not technically the producer was a surprise. because, I assumed that packaging companies would be involved with this extended producer responsibility. So what's come on to our plate now is a discussion with our customers to make sure that, and they're all asking us. We shouldn't be the ones that give them that information, so it's companies like yours that, seem to be the kind of the final, information lead, where these companies should reach out to and, and ask, okay, how am I involved here and what's my role and where do I need to sign up if I do need to sign up?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, and it's funny you mentioned it, but that's exactly some of the discussions we're having is around that with, with. that's 1 of the things we can help with, obviously, is help producers work through it. But we have been talking about with, packaging manufacturers as well, because. As you said, they're indirectly impacted. And also because we're not just talking about extended producer responsibility at its core anymore, we're talking really about circular economy policies. And so, post-consumer recycled content issues, eco design, elements, weight reduction. falls into that choice of materials by brand owners, based on what is most cost effective in an extended producer responsibility system. Those questions are now. More on the manufacturer side, and they're asking themselves those questions, which are very valid and real questions that they do need to ask themselves. They don't need to be the 1 reporting into the system and aren't legally responsible for that, but they are going to be impacted. Absolutely.
Speaker:That's an excellent point. We're as packaging producers, we will be on the hook to our customers to provide them with the data and the information about the packaging that we provide to them. And, I think that's an excellent point. Point for the people that listen to this podcast, which are in this industry is you need to have your data straight and, companies like spec, right? Are there to help with that? And they're 1 of our sponsors and they do a great job figuring out, how to. Tracking all the information of the material that you provide and, having a 1 source of truth for your data, which is incredibly important nowadays with all these scope reporting and reporting that will have to be done.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. And it's, precisely to that kind of data work that, we are hoping producers are on and seeing, however, that they're not really yet. And the producer responsibility organization that has been set up, in a number of states by now, circular action alliance, they're now starting to ask for that data. and I'm not sure. They're really being heard by everybody who is going to be obligated and, don't mind being busy, but I'm fearing a little bit that come a few weeks from now, we're going to have. Hundreds, thousands of inquiries by people who are going to be asking us like, Hey, what is the CPR thing and how do I report into it? And what data do I need for it? And it takes unfortunately a few months sometimes for them to gather that data because it involves, not just themselves, but it'll involve the sales channels. First of all, it involves a number of teams on their side, finance, supply chain sales, marketing as well that, that are going to be impacted internally. And then it's their suppliers that are, they're going to be needing to provide some of that information as well. And so the earlier that ask happens, the, the more prepared they'll be. But, as I said, I'm not super optimistic at the moment that everybody is as well prepared as they need to be.
Speaker:I, I totally agree. I think a lot of people don't even understand what it is. Like you said, and they don't know that it's coming. the circular action alliance and like yourselves have a huge task in front of you to, spread the message about this and, explain it to the whole world of business, how this is going to work and how this is going to affect everyone. It seems like with the different laws rolling out in different states and different, municipalities across the world, that some states and some areas are significantly more stringent than others. And there's laws seem to have, a massive, Delta between them. Are you finding that, in your research and are you finding that companies are preparing for the worst?
Speaker 2:so take that from two sides here. The first one, I don't, I think the core issue around the companies is really that the lack of preparedness on not on, obviously, circular action lines and their producers. They're informed, they know this is coming. They're large companies. they've seen this before and other jurisdictions as well. but it's the, more local, more regional, smaller, medium sized producers that are going to be obligated that are Don't think have this on their radar at the moment. And so there's that issue on in terms of the different regulations. It's, yeah, it's a, it's an interesting and observation that we're making, just watching those developments happen. And comparing that to what we know are our best practices from other jurisdictions, that's maybe the reassuring comforting thing that I can share with you and with others as well is the, this is not new. This has been done many times before and in other countries and other jurisdictions, and as a result. we know how to tackle this issue from a systemic from a, from an organizational point of view, and from a cost point of view as well. and we can obviously help producers work through all of that. but the regulations and legislations that we're seeing in the U. S. very vastly from each other. And that will continue to create a problem. And unfortunately, there are a few laws that were passed under this that are. Either just. Just say they're not great policy to begin with. They are bad laws. and, and there are, I'll give the example of the state of Maine, for example, that is not what we would consider, in international best practices for EPR. And then there's other laws that, California SB 54, a bill that. That contain, I would say, worrisome aspects, such as, that gigantic fund that they want to create and without too much oversight that's supposed to, manage circularity around plastics. but like I said, that's more maybe nitpicking, but where we are seeing, unfortunately, also a few policies that aren't. Really what we have observed our best practices based on the 2030 years that has been in place and other jurisdictions.
Speaker:Well, let's talk about that. What is the parts of the main laws that, you make you a little nervous that what maybe are less than ideal.
Speaker 2:It's the, I would say it's the level of government involvement in it. that's problematic. It's, the role of governments in an extended producer response. Remember, it's an extended producer responsibilities. It's not an extended government responsibility system. Very true. And so the role of government is under an EPR system is to set the rules. And to get out of the way, what we're seeing as it's written right now, and, there's more rulemaking to be done in Maine, but as it's written right now with the law there, it's almost seems like government wants to run the system and that will inevitably lead to conflict and to higher costs. Especially because they do get to set the costs, for example, in the main legislation. And, again, typically. It is you set targets as a government, and you have to make sure that those targets are being met. but you leave the management of the system itself to producers. and it's their money. It's their responsibility. And yes, they have the goals and targets to meet, but, government doesn't need to be looking, and moving the mouse for them on the computer. If you want, they can be more hands off. Exactly.
Speaker:What parts of the world will your company be the PRO?
Speaker 2:It were appearal in, in a couple of provinces in Canada, and then in a number of European countries. in the US, we're purely a consulting company. and, just working with producers to help them really understand because that's what we see is the greatest need right now. There is an organization that has been set up that is in the process of implementing the different plans in the different states. and so we see our role more in supporting producers in the U. S., in Europe and in Canada, we've taken on a more operational role, but, but it's like I said, different, countries, different, different priorities.
Speaker:There's a lot of, concern, amongst, producers, people that, have found out that they are going to be on the hook for these things. But I'd like to talk about some of the positive aspects of this. Can you tell us a little bit about some positive things that are happening because of these laws or positive things that you see will happen in the future because of these laws?
Speaker 2:long story short, EPR works in achieving. Circular economy objectives, and it's been proven to work. yes, you will always have people that are going to say, oh, yeah, but what I put into my blue bin, my blue box at home, it's just going to end up in the landfill anyways. And it's that's not true. 1st of all, and 2nd of all, we, through a system like EPR, we make. The system overall better, is that I don't want to, go against municipalities here at all. But the scale that you achieve, through a statewide system is greater and more effective. And quite frankly, I think municipality, they're often it's another benefit for more from a consumer and citizen perspective. municipalities often quite happy to have that cost. Remove off of their responsibilities and shift to producers. It is also from a consumer perspective, just a fairer way of sharing costs, because at that moment, you as a consumer, you pay for what you actually consume rather than you live in a house and you pay 100 dollars per. Year, month, whatever it is to, to have your recycling picked up. It is now based purely on what you as a consumer, consume, but yeah, so yeah, I totally understand the plans, the fears, but it is also just like a fair system, if you like.
Speaker:Yeah, you could, you, you didn't get a, there was no benefit for consuming less before, you're paying, that's a really excellent point, Adrian. I think you're right, that, if your blue bin is only half Full because you didn't, and your garbage can is only half full because you didn't produce as much waste. there was no benefit other than it's easier to take it to the curb. Now there will be a cost savings, because you didn't purchase as much. It sounds like what you're saying. So EPR will, and that's been another thing. A lot of people have been concerned with, well, EPR is going to raise costs for everything. And it sounds like that's not the case. it will cost producers.
Speaker 2:that's that's that's a reality. And, yes, they will see those costs, on them and they will pass those costs on to, on to consumers, but it's not but it's not a purely additional cost. Right? But as I mentioned that there are municipal cost savings on the other end and come back to the consumer piece. Of course, what it would allow you to do as well is as a consumer is. To select. Products based on now their environmental attributes a little bit more so you can, and a lot of people admittedly don't do that. you're not going to buy one brand of chips versus another because you prefer one brand over the other. but some will, at least it gives you that option that if you do want to purchase a product that has a better packaging and fully recyclable packaging or made of different products, different materials, then, then at least you have that option.
Speaker:That's an excellent point. You'll be able to vote with your wallets and you'll be able to convince brands to make better decisions. And, I think the consumer will be more involved than ever, in this situation. That's excellent point. Very exciting. Do you think that, I'm asking you to get out your crystal ball, in your desk, I know it's in the bottom drawer there. can you predict someday if this program will be national or even international and, because if these, if we have 50 different laws in America and, one for each province in Canada, it's going to be. I can see the writing on the wall. Do you feel like eventually that will just all they'll come to their senses and they'll say, Hey, we got to get together on this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I shared that message at that's a circularity last week as well. I, there, there is hope, do not despair. I, but I absolutely share the concerns around, a fragmented system where you. If you're a national producer, you will have to deal with 50 different EPR systems and, across the country, or in the case of Canada, it's 10 provinces and three territories, but, Europe just showed that you can harmonize. so 28 countries in Europe got together and are in the process now of setting up a harmonized, laws already been passed across European Union. It's 28 countries will have a much more harmonized. international, EPR system for packaging. that's great. What's that law
Speaker:called? Do you know
Speaker 2:it's the, packaging and packaging waste regulation. So that's the PPWR. Exactly. You got it. I asked last week who knew what PPWR stands for. not too many people knew, but that's great. But yeah, so the PPWR is that regulatory framework across Europe that was, that was created. Approved by the European Parliament, a couple of months ago and that's moving forward. Internationally, there's discussion, or like on a global scale, there's those discussions happening as well. I was at the, plastics, treaty negotiations that were here in Ottawa, a few weeks ago. And there was, or there is a concerted effort to create, standards at least, or a bit of a, minimum framework for extended producer responsibility. Globally. somewhat skeptical around this working really around the world. There's too many, we're 2 different, across different countries, different continents, sometimes different cities. that's for that to really, I think, take off anytime soon, but you can see that there is that global thinking happening around it already. But, yeah, it is. so like I said, I'm not, I'm hopeful, but it will take time. It's taken us time in Canada to get this, project move forward. We'll take time in the U S. and I fear in the meantime, we will have to deal with a bit of a patchwork until this can be, more harmonized.
Speaker:That's a great way to think of it. It's what it is right now. It's a patchwork of ideas and systems and, people working really hard to make positive changes. I think. but in the end of this whole process, what are the best case scenario outcomes
Speaker 2:at the end of the day, the best case scenario has to be that we have better. More circular, packaging, that's really what we're doing this for. we're not doing this for for the sake of good policy. We are as well, but at the heart of it, this is to avoid and, and reduce, reduce plastic, plastic waste. And for that, that can't be avoided or reduced, to, to at least recycle or reuse it. and that has to remain the core focus of what we do, keeping in mind also, but consumption patterns. we're not going to want to going to be changing the world in a day, but this, so this will take time to for us to adjust and to adjust the materials that we use in packaging to adjust the design that we have in packaging and to build those. EPR systems to operate efficiently across a full state. And then hopefully a full region and eventually maybe even nationally. So
Speaker:it's exciting to me. I've been thinking about this for years and I know you have, this is, to me, it's, incredibly exciting what the potential is here to, to make a real positive. Impact on our planet in a way that's as far as I can tell, hasn't been done before. so are you excited about this? Oh, absolutely. I
Speaker 2:mean, it's also, so what I do every day, it's what we live for here every day at Raycliffe started edge. so it is exciting. In fact, a bit of an anecdote there, but it is so exciting that we thought this was happening 10 years ago in the U S and we got ready. We got our teams, teams ready to, work on EPR for packaging and in the United States. and then nothing happened until about a year ago. Right. when all of a sudden bill after bill has started to be implemented. So I always like to think we were at the. at the, we did see clearly this in our crystal ball that's, stashed away in our desks.
Speaker 3:Yeah,
Speaker 2:we were just a little bit wrong about the timelines and how quickly it was going to happen. but here we are now it is happening and, all confusion, panic, fears aside, this has been done before. So it's, it can be done again. And, and it will, just need a little bit of time and an adjustment over the years.
Speaker:Yeah, great points. I wish you and your team the best of success. And, I would like to find out what are the best ways for people to get in touch with you if they have questions about EPR and want to sign up for the PRO or
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, the easiest way is to simply go to our website. so reclaim group. com And then, pick which country you're accessing it from, I'm on LinkedIn. I actually read my messages on LinkedIn if people write me. So I'm always happy to get in touch with people that way as well. and, yeah, check out our website and you'll have to be able to contact information there as well, or under my email even at replace Stuart edge dot com.
Speaker:I'll put those in the show notes. So people can reach out to you.
Speaker 2:Especially spelling wise. Yes.
Speaker:It's not like Jean Claude Van Damme, but it's, it sounds like it. Right. I can see that. That's wonderful. Well, thank you, sir. Really appreciate your wisdom and your time today. Thanks for having me.
