Sustainable Packaging

WWF VP Erin Simon (World Wildlife Fund)

• Cory Connors • Season 4 • Episode 284

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How does World Wildlife Fund affect positive change in sustainable packaging?
Did you know the WWF is working hard with their over 5,000,000 members to improve our planet?
https://www.worldwildlife.org/
World Wildlife Fund:


Erin Simon:



 

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Cory Connors:

Welcome to Sustainable Packaging with Cory Connors. Today's guest is Erin Simon, the Vice President of Plastic and Waste in Business at World Wildlife Fund. Erin, how are you? Thanks for coming.

Erin Simon:

I'm great. Thank you so much for having

Cory Connors:

me. That's quite a title, quite a, quite an organization that you work with. Very impressive.

Erin Simon:

Thanks. Yeah, it is. I think sometimes we design titles and hope they inform people of who we are, but sometimes they just need a whole explanation in themselves, don't they?

Cory Connors:

I, I totally understand. Usually, if there are more than two words, I ask the guest to say them, but, which I probably should have done this time. But before we get into what you do now, let's talk a little bit about your background. I've seen you, speak on panels and be, you're very active in the industry and very impressive with your career, but I'd like to know how you got to this point.

Erin Simon:

Yeah, well, I. I went to school for packaging engineering, and material science at Michigan State University. And, I really liked the intersection of science and the real world. I liked that it felt very tangible from an engineering perspective. And I got hired right out of, Michigan State into Hewlett Packard. in their laser jet printer division in Boise, Idaho. I had done an, I don't know if it's the same anymore. The, that organization has gone through so many changes, but, yeah, they, I used to be a packaging designer for large format printers. So those were the ones that you usually find like in a printer room in an office. so my first patent was a dynamic palette system that allowed anybody to push a like multi hundred. Printer off without hurting themselves or damaging the printer. but yeah, so I was there for, doing a lot of design and material science work for about five years and then, ended up on the East coast, and continue to work at Hewlett Packard, but in the. inkjet and supply side of things. So, a lot of photo paper and more commercial where the other was more, B2B. This is more commercial, and B2C. And so, really doing that and got to, got a little bit, more aware of the fact that when we were designing I For, when we were designing packaging, we're really thinking about the consumer. We weren't really thinking more holistically the demands for the environment. We're really high level like. Use less material and make it recyclable, but the useless material really had a lot of cost savings benefit. Right? And then, the make it recyclable was just technical recyclability. And anyone who is material scientist knows that anything can technically be recyclable. Right? Just if you can collect it and process it and have it actually, so. Yeah, it was in that, that I, got into, started to think a little bit more about where things came from and the impact that these materials have more broadly. so do you want me to keep going and just tell you the full story about how I got to WWF or do you want me to pause? It's like my life story here.

Cory Connors:

Well, I'm fascinated. I love talking to people and yes, I would love to hear your whole story whatever you want to tell whatever you're you think is valuable A lot of students listen to the program and they would be interested in your Trajectory to get to a very high level in this industry is not easy to do, especially when you start out as a packaging engineer, that to where you are now, those are very different titles and, kudos to you and your continued growth. so, yeah, what HP is an awesome company and what a diverse, capability they have of producing. Products all across the spectrum. they are a customer of ours at Aurora. And, so it's been a lot of fun to see them change over the years and, develop new kinds of print. now they're talking about, 3d printing and think, all from laser jet to 3d, this is pretty cool, innovations.

Erin Simon:

Yeah. And I think, they were thinking of the service model a lot earlier than many have done, right? yeah, I, and I, what I really enjoyed about HP was a number, well, a lot of things. I really, I was there for a decade. I had some of my best mentors, I learned how to be a people manager from some of the leadership there. but they, when, they definitely allowed us to dig into some things and that was actually how as I got more and more interested in the environment, I was able to explore. what that could look like for an organization like HP and how HP could even be a leader in that. this is about the time that the Lacey Act was coming in and what the Lacey Act basically said, it was a trade law that said, if you are sourcing anything that comes that is forest based, it has to be traceable chain of custody, traceable down to the forest of hectare and the species. Right. And that type of transparency just didn't really exist in pulp and paper supply chains, right? there were so many brokers at that point. and that, so that was quite, it was quite a challenging premise, for companies to figure out that, that trace, that traceability, and then be able to use that for paperwork, for any incoming shipment. And so, the, one of the, A program that helped companies to deal with this was called the Global Trade and Forest Network, and that's a World Wildlife Fund program out of their forestry team, and the basis of that program was to help companies to understand not only what they were sourcing, where it was coming from, but how it was forested, and then set targets to move to more sustainable forestry practices. But it created it helped with the business case, right, because it helped, build in that transparency, but it also helped become, it helped companies to go through this. So, as we explored this opportunity, with GFTN, the Global Forest and Trade Network, because I was on the East Coast and my, the leadership of my team was primarily in San Diego, I was the one who was really engaging with WWF at the time. To talk about, like, and I did this on the company side, right? I was there helping us figure out how we built that transparency. And we started with our big roles of pulp and paper, primarily coming from Southeast, U. S. For our photo paper, which enabled us to get international paper, who was a big sourcer at the time, a big supplier at the time to also become a part of this program. but really, and then move to some of our packaging materials and create that. That transparency and that plan for moving forward and I, In making progress against, being a huge buyer of for a forest price projects that came from areas that were creating deep deforestation or habitat loss or species, and ecosystem impacts. So, but I would travel from Richmond up to DC because in Richmond, Virginia. pretty regularly because travel, travel restrictions and whatnot and I could drive up there and I got to know a lot of the WWF team. and as we would talk about my background and such, I was like, there's all these materials you have to be thinking about and just, got to know a bunch of people and they happen to need somebody to help them think through that with companies because they had a lot of companies approaching them on more than just pulp and paper. That's great. And so in a whirlwind of interviews and one day right before Christmas, I was offered a job to come in and figure out how to do that. So, they're like in 2011 made the transition. and it was, that was a wild ride coming from the private sector into a nonprofit and where I, they're like my first day. I was you want me to do? I don't know what should we do? like what needs to be done here. And so, yeah, so that was 2020, 2011 and, since then, my job was to help create a program to have companies think about all the materials, where they're coming from, what the impacts are and what they should be doing. And now, that has. Thank you. That has evolved so greatly to the point where not only am I helping companies think about it, helping them to partner better and helping them to think about how to partner with community members and the public and advocate for policy, both in the US and globally with a treaty. It's, I could not have predicted. When I started school as a packaging, this would have been my future, but I love the organization. I love the people and I like that. I get to spend most of my days just problem solving with others to try to figure out how to do things a bit better for the planet and people. So it's hard not to feel satisfaction with that.

Cory Connors:

That's incredible and what a great story and what a great motivation for people who are looking for a new career. I always say packaging is so interesting and exciting and there's so many unique opportunities. you should check it out. And, it's, like you said, you, I didn't plan to do what I'm doing. You didn't plan to do what you're doing. It wasn't like I woke up and said, I want to be in sustainability someday. That wasn't even a word back then. Like we called it green packaging, or environmentally friendly. yeah, exactly. I, interviewed somebody yesterday and they were talking about the same thing, but in a new context, they were talking about how they're buying corrugated from, converters. Yeah. Those converters buy sheets of corrugated from mills. Like, yeah, international paper, Aurora, these companies and they said it wouldn't the company that I was interviewing said they needed to be able to trace that the paper that they're buying is at least 30 percent post consumer recycled. Content and they said the converters that they were talking to said, that's not possible. we can't trace this. We don't know the makeup of the paper. We barely know the liners, made up. We just know that this is B flute and it's 32 pound. And so this is a great point about what you're saying. But now it's extended produce responsibility folks.

Erin Simon:

Yeah. if we look forward at what it's like such a jump, right? From just fundamentally understanding where you're getting things from. Yeah. because only when you have that transparency and visibility, can you actually do anything to take ownership over your impact. Right. To now saying, being transparent about what you're putting into a municipal system. So that the, so that it can be processed into a secondary market material and being able to say like, Hey, I might pay a fee based on whether or not I am meeting those standards and specifications. And if I'm not, will I pay a higher fee? And if I have eco benefits. It's like a benefit. It's the next term. like, recycle content, et cetera, that, like, I could have a different fee, like, constant, you can model the modulation. It creates market drivers for environmental, criteria, which is. What's really powerful, right? To think about in a decade, just a little bit more than a decade. I've been here about 13 years, but like in the time since I was, in the 2 decades since I was in school, in the, the decade plus that I've been doing this work to see that much evolution of thinking is really impressive. I think especially in conservation, we feel like a lot of things are moving too slow for the planet and let's say, let's be honest. They are including our waste problem. But yeah, then you watch this type of pace and the majority of us are barely hanging on right to be able to keep up with it, and do something with that exciting fast pace. So, yeah, what a predicament.

Cory Connors:

This has been, Really awesome. I have a bunch of questions to ask you. So I'm going to keep going. I'm going to do some kind of Some quick fire questions here. Okay, so let's talk about the UN Global Treaty to end plastic pollution including the business case for coordination and action Reuse systems and bioplastics. So I want to cover all of that in this next section So okay, chew on that however you want start wherever you want.

Erin Simon:

Okay, so First of all, one of the things that has become apparent in the plastic pollution crisis is that individual actions, whether by countries or companies, are not enough. and that's because it is, it needs to be so coordinated, right? That physical sourcing of materials to how it's used to where it ends up in the world by these multinational huge producers. and then what type of infrastructure exists there that is so inconsistent, that No matter if it's country by country or company by company, those individual levers for change are not enough, right? we've seen, so much more, I think like 60 percent more effort by those individual actors in the last, eight years and only, and at the same time, 50 percent more plastic pollution, right? So there's this need for this coordinated approach. And that is when you see a treaty come about it, a treaty happens when everyone in the world says we have a shared threat. We have to make a plan together. We can't do this on our own. that's when there's usually that eligibility and political appetite for that treaty. And so we have been in the middle of a process to establish a legally binding instrument to end plastic pollution. That was launched in March of 2022. Yeah. Big name, right? Very ambitious. It was unanimously agreed upon by 175 member states. That's the term used for country in the UN process. And they, the treaty negotiating process typically takes up to 10 years, cause they have to go through five of these intergovernmental negotiating committee meetings, IMCs, I know before they have a diplomatic conference, a dip con, for which a treaty is ratified. And then they go into the conferences of the parties, which are cops, which many people are familiar with the climate process, but long and short, you can imagine that takes a while, but the other thing though, it was 175. Member states agreed to back in 2022 is to do it in an accelerated pace to do it in two years time to have a treaty by early 25. So we're here. We are. We've had 3. it's been a whirlwind all over the world and we will head to Ottawa in April and then South Korea in the fall. And hopefully have a treaty next year, which is mind blowing as I coming back to that discussion of pace, but what is really hard is one. The process is about alignment globally. It's all about consensus. It's all about creating alignment about what we agree on. It's about not like it's not about like solving the world's problems in one global instrument, but. Solving those things that we can do together. And that is a really difficult premise for all the key stakeholders who are observing the process and also for those countries who have very different political agendas, as you can imagine. So it's been a very steep learning curve for all of us. but one where I know that coming out of this, no matter what that treaty looks like. The world is going to change how we think about the material, how we use it, and how we get it back, which is really powerful. And it's going to change what new solutions come down the pipe to address the problems that have very much surfaced in the science that has emerged around the human health and environmental impacts from the entire life cycle of plastics, right? So some of those solutions Our bioplastics and our reuse systems, right? And so I want to be clear here that not anything I talk about in a vacuum will solve this problem. It's not going to be a ban. It's not going to be recycling. It's not going to be advanced recycling. It's not going to be bioplastics. It's not paper, glass, aluminum or read. It is literally everything right in a coordinated way that is going to be necessary. And so that's what's really difficult as people are yeah, well, recycling is broken. Yes, we need to fix that, but we also need to create real use systems. And we also need, we have to do all of these things and hopefully We'll agree on all of them because that'll be the framing that the treaty puts together. So we say, okay, we're going to, we're going to have recycling. We're going to have standards for it. So we're all making things that work in the infrastructure. So if countries who don't have it and are investing in it, they can accept things and it can get, recycle material versus what's happening now, which is make anything. Hope it works. Yeah. it's like a global wish cycle plan, Right. So so for bioplastics, right, they are plastics., right? They're just coming from new carbon instead of old. I saw an amazing bumper sticker today, by the way, and it was right next to a gas tank on a car, and it had like a little recycle symbol, and it had a dinosaur, and it says running on recycled dinosaurs, because the joke there. That's true, yeah. Right? Like, old carbon. Terrible. Oil and gas. It's a terrible joke, but I thought it, I was like, that made me chuckle. Old carbon is non renewable in our lifetimes, and that's what 99 percent of plastics are made of. New carbon is like carbon that you get from things that grow. So a bio based plastic, something that comes from green things that can grow, is a possibility for reducing that upstream impact of Non renewable resources. However, it creates its own set of risks right around because we're agriculture now. So we got water and chemical use and energy and ecosystems and food security. And so land and land. Yeah. And it's not that you can't do it. And you can't do it well and more sustainably. You just, it can't, it's just not like an automatic, like, if you do this, check the box. It's a, if you are responsibly sourcing that feedstock, right? It still leaves you with a plastic that has to be managed at the end of its life. And that may mean it needs to be, it might be like one that is non. Biodegradable, right? It is just a traditional plastic. It's a bio PET or PP. So you need to have recycling infrastructure. So your needs are the same as a traditional plastic in recovery and circularity, right? You need to still get it back. or if it's compostable or industrial compostable, or, you still need infrastructure because the solution to pollution is not to make it so it can go into nature and just break down the best data we have about plastics in nature is that they cause a lot of problems when they're there right away, entanglement ingestion, like. It's just not, it's not a good, it's not a good solution. We shouldn't be designing it to be littered. So

Cory Connors:

not a good mindset for the consumer. Oh, we can just throw it in the woods now. That's fine. Yeah. Great

Erin Simon:

point. Yeah. So it's, so again, it helps us to reduce impact in one part of that life cycle. Right. But you're still, you still have to manage it. similar with reuse, right? Reuse is really exciting. Some of the good studies out right now show that it some like our single use plastics, about 25 to 30 percent of the portfolio today globally should move to reuse systems, all kinds of different reuse systems, reuse in the home, reuse on the go, refill, all these things. but the key to reuse, right, is that we reuse it. If we don't, we just have very resource intensive single use items. And if, we're always like, what's the next hot water bottle? Right. Then you have

Cory Connors:

40 of them. Right. Yeah.

Erin Simon:

Right. So it's about like thoughtfulness. And so how do you get to scale with reuse? You need a system, you need collection, cleaning, refill, process, you need behavior change, you need good policy, and you need those products to be sustainably made in the first place. They need to be more durable, but they still need to be thoughtful about where do these materials come from? What are the human health implications? what is the end of life when it's no longer going to be able to be reused and cycled anymore? How do we get as many of those resources back? Again, in this entire, like, Systems review we're doing as we all rethink our relationship with plastics and look at future business models and solutions and a potentially new political like policy framework globally and then, of course, nationally, like, how do we make sure that we are a part of enabling those shifts in a really sustainable manner right when back in the day when I'm trying to think of the movie now when he's like plastic is the future. It was the graduate right? Oh, yes. Yeah, like he wasn't thinking he was thinking this material is like magical and it should be able to do everything but nobody asked the question. But what about what happens when we're done with it? Right? And so we are

Cory Connors:

going to save trees. Right? Yeah. Yeah, that was the idea. Everybody pushes back on me like, well, they used to say that plastic was great because we didn't have to cut down trees for it. But now, yeah.

Erin Simon:

the first cellulose that came out to replace the use of ivory and billiard balls and in, brush and mirror handles, right? Like, it's super fascinating how innovation cycle, right? And so the standard, the bar for what success needs to look like in the next set of solutions that help us to solve these. Problems is going to be higher, right? We're going to ask for that thoughtfulness ahead of time. so all of those, I believe, are going to be a part of the future solution. It's just going to be, we need to be really thoughtful as we do it. So, one, that we can allow that human ingenuity. To drive forward America, like not Americans, humans in general, we are really great at inventing ways to improve things, but we just have to do it a bit like, not so myopically, right, it has to be for the benefit of all versus the benefit of one thing.

Cory Connors:

Yeah, well said, I couldn't agree with you more. this is a pie of the solution, the wedges, and they're going to change in size and shape over the next 100 years, but they're all of the wedges are needed, recycling, reuse, compostable, whatever the case may be. And I love this idea of a systems. you're, we're re looking at how we're doing things. As a holistic approach. Yeah, that's what it's going to take to really solve the problems. I think. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit more about, world wildlife fund. can you give us some specifics about, what you and your team do to help at maybe at these events or separately?

Erin Simon:

Yeah, so, for those who don't know, right, World Wildlife Fund is one of the world's largest conservation networks. we're over, we're in over 100 countries and, supported by more than 5 million members globally. Amazing. Holistically, I know. It's a really core organization, right? Like, the mission is about protecting, The planet and species for future generations. And so all of our strategies around thinking about key goals that are make up, the success for that, whether that's preservations of forests and freshwater and like marine ecosystems, obviously like protection of species, the panda as our logo is iconic in just. and how we are, how we work to double type of tiger populations and, support the American buffalo and more things that I don't know about because really smart people who work here do that work. And I just feel a bit jealous, because I work with trash.

Cory Connors:

Well, you're important to Aaron.

Erin Simon:

and then, of course, there's climate and food, right? Because those are huge systems. So everything we do is really thoughtfully thinking about that entire integrated sort of world that we're trying to protect. And when we think about materials, whether in packaging or in durable goods, there's such cross cutting impacts on all of those areas from the ecosystems and species disrupted in the raw material sourcing, the local communities or, impacts from production. for joining. the behavior change and impact, on human health and use and then waste and how we get it back. So when I came into WWF and my job was to create a program for engaging with companies, the first thing I really started to do is say, how can I help them to understand that they have a bigger role to play than those two high level things of using less and making sure it's recyclable, right? So a lot of what my team and I do is. create some transparency around like what the issues are. What is a company's part in those issues? Where's their impact? So therefore, what is the strategy to address that? And how can we improve? How do we work together? And how do we lead? we often call this sort of like a stepwise approach, right? Like, And so we do that by we establish platforms to help companies come together, do it in either a safer space because they're not alone asking these tough questions or, a in a platform where it allows them to reduce the cost to entry because they're all doing it at once, right? That pre competitive space. But so we have spent a lot of time building this trust and really communicating to key stakeholders what their role can be. I often akin like a lot of what our team does to being it playing a very influencer type of role, right? I myself nor my team, nor even my organization. We're not on the ground doing the implementation. In many cases, we are saying to a company, here's what you should be doing in this place. And you should be working with these governments and you should be working with these partners and these governments. We are almost like saying here, let us help you figure out how to do this better. and let us help you do it credibly. so that as you're making progress or not, we can help you course correct and move forward. so we're not endorsing companies. We're saying like, yeah, that's a good direction. And, oh, you got that wrong, but like, what could we learn? ultimately trying to find that common ground. Today, I spent a lot of time talking to governments, especially in the treaty process. I spent a lot of time talking to the U. S. government, and we advocate at the state level, talking to companies, big companies, little companies, individuals, donors, everybody has a role to play in this. and so how can we keep that hope and that positivity alive so that those hard sets of complicated solutions that I talked about and the systems change that need to happen will not only be. possible, but also will be mobilized by who takes it on next. Right. Government and business have to start, but then we need to keep the general public empowered and excited. So when it's time for them to recycle after reading a million recycling is broken articles. Yeah, they will still do it. Right. They'll still do it.

Cory Connors:

Great point. Well, so companies can reach out to you and they will, They can ask you questions. Yep. Hey, we have this issue. What, where could you, what's a resource we could. Yeah, help that could help us. Is that right?

Erin Simon:

Yeah. A lot of times they'll reach out and they'll be like, Hey, we're trying to do this. We're interested or they're interested in like, 1 of our programs, right? We have resource plastic, which is pretty well known at this point because it is a transparent reporting tool that allows them to measure progress then create a strategy with friends and like execute. so we get a lot of interest in that. We also have programs that allow collective alignment on policy. so support for APR in the U. S. around my 1 source coalition and then the treaty is the business coalition for the global plastic treaty. So how can they come together with others? We have a ton of resources online. We do a lot of white papers and position papers because, again, our role is to make sure we give as like share the information that we have with as many people as possible so they can do something with it, though, to get it to the people who have the power to drive the change. Right?

Cory Connors:

Aaron. Thank you so much for all of your time. This has been incredible. 1 of the number 1 questions I get is, Where do I go for help? And so now we'll be able to say, check out World Wildlife Fund. It's an awesome organization and they can help you. thank you for the work that you're doing. We appreciate it. And, yeah, look forward to chatting again soon.

Erin Simon:

Yeah, absolutely. And for students who are looking to get into, we're interested in packaging engineering or in it already. Like, there, there's a whole world outside of just design and making, products. There is a whole world of expertise needed in this space. so I would encourage them to explore even beyond the traditional job opportunities they're looking at now, because there's a lot to do out there. There's a lot of need for more expertise in the conservation space, so. And a lot

Cory Connors:

of jobs. Yeah, a lot of sustainable jobs that never existed. 2 years ago. Yeah. Well said Aaron. Thank

Erin Simon:

you. 100%. Yeah, of course. Thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure.

Cory Connors:

Thank you.

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