Ask Your Customers before you make the change. CEO Allison Rak (Vatoca)

https://www.linkedin.com/in/allisonrak/
https://www.vatoca.com/
What if you could find out what your customers want before you made the investment? 
Maybe they don't want you to make that change? 
They may have a different idea that could improve your sales. 

https://anewearthproject.com/collections/new-earth-approved

Connect with Cory

Connect with Cory on LinkedIn here: 
https://www.linkedin.com/in/cory-connors/

I'm here to help you make your packaging more sustainable! Reach out today and I'll get back to you asap. 

This podcast is an independent production and the podcast production is an original work of the author. All rights of ownership and reproduction are retained—copyright 2022.

Transcript

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Cory Connors: 0:00

Welcome to Sustainable Packaging with Cory Connors. Today's guest is Allison Rak , the principal and CEO at Vatoca . How are you, Allison? I'm good. Thank you. Excellent. I want to talk about, your presentation at the Orora Sustainable Design Lab, but we'll get into that in a little bit because it was so awesome. I said, you have to be on my podcast. Okay, I think I will. But tell us about yourself. What's your background?

Allison Rak: 0:27

Sure. so I have a company, a boutique consumer insight and innovation consultancy called Batoka. My background, I actually started my career on Capitol Hill. Which might seem disconnected, but I think it is actually there's a lot of analogies. I worked on Capitol Hill, after college for a number of years, and I grew up in California and Silicon Valley and moved back to Silicon Valley. And when I came back, I noticed some, I'd say analogies. I think of it as the member of Congress is your brand. The legislation is your product and your constituents are your consumers and it all once you think of it in that paradigm, everything there are a lot of analogies to be made. Yeah, I worked for a few different companies, including a design firm where I led the consumer insight, function and then started the token. I don't know, 15 plus years ago and we work with. Mostly larger, but not always like, I'd say like fortune 500, let's say companies doing just a range of different insight related work, more qualitative than quantitative, but all different methodologies really just to help customers, clients understand their consumers make better

Cory Connors: 1:53

decisions. it's really excellent what you do. I have firsthand knowledge of that. but what on Capitol Hill did you do? Were you, working with senators or

Allison Rak: 2:04

I worked for a member of Congress. I started out, as an intern and worked my way up. ultimately I was a legislative director. So just working with a lot of legislation, helping to, it was a great, it's a great, Job, especially for a young person, because it's very exciting and lots going on. And I think it's changed a lot over the years, but I still think it's a. Great place to get your sea legs. Yeah. People say working one year, one year on the Hill is like dog years. So you get seven years of experience.

Cory Connors: 2:39

I believe that from, if the movies I've seen or anything at all accurate, then it's, it looks very intense every day.

Allison Rak: 2:47

yeah, in a good way,

Cory Connors: 2:48

though, mostly. tell us about Vatoca what you said? Fortune 500 companies will come to you. They're looking for information and you're going to help them gather that information. Can you tell us about that process?

Allison Rak: 2:59

Sure, we usually start with, it's always best to start with what the objectives are, right? What are the questions that you're trying to understand? And then if we have clarity on that. We can usually design any type of research methodology to answer those questions. as I mentioned, we focus more on qualitative methodologies, but that can really be anything from focus groups, whether it's in person or online to ethnographies. to, in depth interviews. And there's all sorts of other kind of more creative techniques, using different tools and methods these days. But, but really it's all sorts of methods that involve trying to draw out from consumers, users, what they're thinking, feeling, believing about products and wanting

Cory Connors: 3:51

also. That's fascinating to me. I studied advertising and marketing in college, and I loved that consumer mindset kind of research, market research. I thought it was a really interesting part. That's one of the reasons I was excited to interview you. What kind of information are companies looking to learn from the market regarding sustainability and packaging? So,

Allison Rak: 4:17

you, as, companies have to make decisions around what types of products to build and what types of packaging to select. And, as from the presentation that we did at the summit. There's constraints and decisions that companies need to make and sometimes there's not a lot of flexibility around that. But consumer perception is, should be a factor in all of that because you can make the most sustainable packaging in the world. And we know that consumers say that, sustainability or environmental impact is important in the packaging and the products that they're buying. But then you have to ask the question. do they know what is sustainable? And I don't mean that in a critical way that I'm judging consumers. I'm a consumer, right? We are not experts. And so the question is, It's not just about making the packaging sustainable. It's making it sustainable in a way that you're either you can educate the consumers, or you can make it really obvious, but you also want to get the credit, So I think that it's understanding perceptions and then also maybe understanding what's driving those decisions, I would say, and sometimes companies will be making it, making a, deciding between a few different options, right? We have these 3 different options and we want to get feedback. Which one we should go, which direction we should take it.

Cory Connors: 5:55

Yeah. said. And, for example, at the Aurora sustainable design lab, you gave a presentation and asked questions about, is this sustainable? And there was nearly 100. What I would consider packaging experts in the room and the answers weren't all the same. And I think that's very telling. we had, Orora customers, a Orora coworkers and, still differences of opinion, which is great, but it's also very, informative as to, how important your work is because we need to learn from that. Right.

Allison Rak: 6:32

it was so interesting because. I was focused. The research was focused on the consumers, right? And I was thinking I was going to come in and the message was going to be, gosh, consumers are not unanimous in their understanding of what sustainable, look, we're going to show them 3 different strawberry baskets and 4 different strawberry baskets. And it's basically Please. 25 percent or they all, it's split evenly and I was thinking that the experts would have a more defined point of view on which one was better. And it was fascinating that, that they didn't and that there were so many different ways to do it. So many different sort of justifiable reasons. if you take in transportation considerations, then this one, if you take in the food waste, then this one, it would be. And so it really is, there's so many considerations and it's really, it's. Gets quite interesting.

Cory Connors: 7:38

I agree. it's confusing. I'll be at a conference and somebody will say, is this recyclable? And then there'll be a debate amongst people with sometimes 20 plus years of experience in the industry. And it's fascinating to me because sometimes. All of those people are right based on where they're from, because every municipality has a different recycling scheme and every blue bin is different rules. And it's fascinating to learn. But,

Allison Rak: 8:08

and the piece that we also, like, talked about, I don't know if you remember this, but the kind of, I guess the term is eco anxiety, right? The fact that consumers not only are a bit. Okay. Confused, but they, and they want to do the right thing, right? we have, we all know the data that consumers say that they will choose a product based on the packaging. At least that will be 1 factor and that they will, say that they will pay more, for a product that uses more sustainable packaging or that is a more sustainable product. and that they have felt stress. I think in our survey. Okay. Two thirds said that they have felt stress, when making a product decision because of the packaging waste that the product is generating. And it was even more so with younger people. So, as companies were making these products that are creating this bit of and I'm not saying it's like. The biggest stress in the world that people carrying around, but it is, it's just like one more little sort source of stress. And then you layer on that. They don't quite know how to appease it. So it's an opportunity really, right. It's an opportunity to, take a, alleviate a little bit of that stress. if we

Cory Connors: 9:28

can get it right. I could not agree with you more. and whose job is it to make them feel at ease? And, is that the brand? Is that the packaging company? Is that the design firm? Is that, the municipality? Should they educate people on what's recyclable and what isn't and what's reusable? It's so overwhelming that people just shut down and oftentimes just say. I don't care. I'm not going to worry about that. That's not my job and what I'm trying to do with my podcast and my tick tock page and all the things that say, it's not as hard as it looks. I promise we're going to make. There are some finite things, but there's also some really helpful ways to looking at these decisions. I would like to get a little bit into the nuts and bolts as to how do you gather this information? Do you do like a survey? Do you meet with a group of people? How does that work?

Allison Rak: 10:28

So it totally depends. And as I mentioned, I always like to start with the objectives because that can drive the method. But there's always practical considerations as well. Right? Talking to people in person is always great, but, you can't always do that. And online is fantastic. And, Affords us the ability to talk to people around the country or around the world. And, that, gives more flexibility. sometimes we'll do surveys, big picture, quantitative, such as surveys is a great way to find out what, but qualitative, is. Is better at understanding why so, for example, the survey that we shared at the summit, we know that we know the what right? We know that there is not consistency and people's understanding of which packaging. Is more sustainable, but we don't really know why they chose each 1 right? If we wanted to understand that we would have to do qualitative meaning talking to people focus groups, or you could do an online method or an asynchronous method. That is qualitative in nature. I remember I did a project not long ago. A company was looking to make, a piece of its product recyclable. They wanted to get feedback from. Teenagers, actually, which is one segment of their users wanted to understand what these teenagers thought about this decision, because it was going to be a pretty sizable investment to make this piece of the product. It wasn't the whole product, but it was a portion of the product that was currently a non recyclable plastic, and it was going to be made into a recyclable Plastic and if we had done a survey, we would have found out most likely that this was not very important to them because that's what they told us in the focus groups. And that was surprising, right? Because they're teenagers and we think, oh, this generation is, cares deeply about the environment. And so on first blush, that was a surprising learning. But because they were focus groups, we were able to have really great conversations and the types of things that they said were things like, it's very small. Like, this is a small component of the product relative to the entire product. So, if you're going to focus on making something recyclable, this is not where I want you to focus. They are thinking so deeply there. They said this particular part we are using. I'm going to use it for 2 years. by the time I'm ready to discard it, I'm not going to remember that it's recyclable. How about the package that it comes with? it has so much waste. That's the part that I'm going to throw away right away, or this other part that I'm only going to use for a few weeks. And they're going through the product piece by piece, thinking about the entire footprint, the lifespan, all of it, and they made the case for why this wasn't important. The recyclability of this piece wasn't important. And that's where I'm When you do qualitative research and you talk to people and you show them and they're touching it and feeling it that and, and you have to make trade offs, right? Making it recyclable was going to have a few trade offs in terms of the. the usability and quality of the product, and they're able to see that and you can talk to people and say, oh, this is not a trade off that I particularly want to make. So, that's 1 example of kind of a, what you might learn from doing qualitative focus groups,

Cory Connors: 14:10

that's really incredible. it's very insightful. And I think companies will would be very interested to learn about that kind of information. So I see why your company is successful and why you've done such a great job. I'd love to know your opinion, because we spent a day at the Orora sustainable design lab. What did you think of our new lab? Oh, it

Allison Rak: 14:32

was amazing. Right? it was so great to see, all the different types of materials that are available to see them all in 1 place. And I loved the way they had the data. displayed with them, so you could not only see them and touch them and feel them, but you could also have sort of the metrics, the comparison metrics, which I know is really hard to do, and very caveats around, how they're. But just to even try to take a stab, and put something out there was really great. And it also is, was so, fantastic to just get the creative juices flowing, right? Because I could see how companies could come and start to see the materials. And then the other, the section. That has these different products in use, or just other products, just for inspiration. I know that, just from participating in a lot of innovation workshops that when you're in an environment like that, and you're able to, Use that kind of analogy based innovation process and you can see, you've got access to the materials. You have access to the stories. You have access to all of these different end products that might be. Completely different than what your product is, but you're able to see it and be inspired and say, oh, that gets me thinking about what we're doing. and. And it just helps make, helps people make those leaps that are really hard to make in just everyday life and really hard to make when you're sitting behind a desk in your regular environment. So I could, I think that it's a fantastic place that I know that there's a vision of companies coming and I think they've already started coming and doing these innovation workshops and I think it's going to be. Incredible. for those companies that are able to

Cory Connors: 16:37

do that. Yeah, me too. So, so often I'll speak with a customer or a potential customer and they'll say, I'm not even sure where to begin and, I think this lab helps you start at the beginning and say, okay, here's what we have and sit down around a table with our design team and say, here's what we'd like to accomplish. We're not sure how to get there. but these are our ideas and then have our design team say, have you thought of this? And then you go down that path a little bit. I, in my opinion, I think what the sustainable design lab will do is it will expedite that process and it will save companies years of frustration and saying, what if we. Let's just buy this kind of packaging and see how it goes for this next six months, what if instead of that, they could have three different prototypes or discuss in advance with all of these, this company did this, it was successful or it wasn't and for them, but maybe that would work for us or maybe that new idea or it's, I totally agree. It's a place where people can come up with a new, sustainable, exciting ideas. Right. Yeah, very much so. So I'd love to know your opinion on a couple of things. is perception of sustainability more important than actually showing a lower carbon footprint?

Allison Rak: 18:05

I can't, I don't think we can say that perception is more important. No, because. but is it important? Yes, because we need the consumers to participate, right? when they're the ones making the buying choices, unless we're going to be in a society where mandates are, if we're going to mandate everything and take the consumer decision out, if that's what it comes to someday. Sure, but assuming that's not the case and that we need consumers to be active participants, then perception is a piece that needs to be factored in and, and it's not even, perception of sustainability is important, but I would also say. That taking it, like, maybe just take a step, taking a step back that just consumer experience. Factoring it in is important as well. So, for example, if a company is looking to change wanting to change consumers behavior, say, it has to do with, how they're, reusing a product, refilling or something like that. And you say, there's 3 different ways we could approach this. You would definitely want to engage with consumers and understand how much change they are willing to make. it might surprise you, right? You might find that, you think that they're not willing to make a change that they are, or, I've done, I did a project 1 time where we went to a company's, they were having like a. Customers summit, it was a health care product and it was like there. Yeah, it was like a customer summit and they had some new packaging options that they wanted to get feedback on. So we just set up a little mini research at their, summit along with everything else and had, like, 3 different. 3 different options and people could just, the doctors could come by and say, oh, this 1, this 1 would work really well because of this particular space that we have in our office, and they have these work arounds that they use that the person in designing the products don't really always know how the products are being used in real life and so talking to people, Becomes really important. And sometimes, sometimes the packaging is not even being used. And so you're making this packaging that gets discarded before it's even being used. And that's obviously not what. what nobody wants. And so, so, yeah, so I'm not going to say that perception is more important than reality, but sometimes perception becomes part of your reality. And it's definitely important to under, at least understand what the perception is.

Cory Connors: 20:55

What a great point. And maybe it's, educating what reality is. On the pack and saying this is sustainable because, and I think consumers are interested in that people are reading boxes more and bottles more. They are, they're open to input. I think, and, interested in being part of the solution. At least most people that I've talked to seem to care more than they ever have about the environment. And that's really cool to be a part of that, world.

Allison Rak: 21:29

Yes, they care and they want to know the truth. They don't want to be tricked, right? They don't want to be, everybody knows about greenwashing and that makes people cynical and, is not help helpful for the cause,

Cory Connors: 21:45

Right. said. anything else you wanted to tell us about your company or yourself? Oh, gosh.

Allison Rak: 21:50

I just think it's great. what you guys are doing. I'm excited to, I'm excited. It was great to get to speak at the summit and hear all of the different perspectives and, I think that, we've talked about this already, but I think that just the more that companies are interested in what consumers have to say, the better decisions they make before they, before they're investing, right? I will say it. Definitely. I've seen it happen many times where research is, it's not free, but gosh, it can be a really good investment before giant decisions are made. Giant expensive decisions are made. So, Yeah, I think that asking consumers there, and understanding their perception, sometimes it's validating, which is great before a big decision is made. And obviously, if. A big surprise comes about, then it's a relief that you took the time to, to ask consumers what they think. So

Cory Connors: 22:52

I agree, I'm honored to be a part of Aurora and so excited to work with the amazing team of Chris Bradley and our designers and our managers. It's, the most exciting time ever to work for Aurora packaging. Seriously, 21 years, and I've never been happier to be there.

Allison Rak: 23:11

You guys are doing amazing things. And I know that, Chris is so inspiring to, to work with. And I'm sure the workshops that he is leading and the projects that he is doing over there are, anybody who, any company that's able to participate in those, they will leave talking about it for years to come.

Cory Connors: 23:32

Yeah, I can confirm that the companies we've had come through so far have been just, totally excited and appreciative of the new tools and the lab and all the testing equipment. And, it's gonna, it's a huge hit already. That's awesome. let's talk about how people get in touch with you when they need data, when they need to know what to do next.

Allison Rak: 23:55

Sure. Yeah. So, we have a website, it's batoka. com. It's funny. Batoka stands for Virginia to California. So V A T O C A dot com. I joke around that the company name was, is Virginia to California, otherwise known as URL that was available.

Cory Connors: 24:17

Well played.

Allison Rak: 24:18

Nice. Yes. I am Allison at batoka. com. Allison with two L's and an I. And, yeah, LinkedIn and all the normal places and

Cory Connors: 24:30

I'll put all those

Allison Rak: 24:31

links in the notes. Yeah, we do all we do mostly custom work, but just we work with companies and talk about what their objectives are and figure it out from there.

Cory Connors: 24:43

That's awesome. And we have quite a few students that listen to this podcast. Could, packaging students sign up to be a part of your survey to make a few bucks?

Allison Rak: 24:52

it's interesting that we don't, we typically source our participants from third parties. we don't necessarily hold a panel cause it's like a separate thing, but I'd be happy to talk to any students or put them in touch with the, there's so many different panel providers out there. so I know it's a great, it is a great way to earn some money. And especially when, when you're a student and they have, they're very articulate, they have some good, important decisions. I think with sustainability, the student perspective is so important. I have, one of my teen daughters said to me not long ago, she said, We watch these movies in class, and they're all the same. They tell us about how the world, the environment and how it's all falling apart. And at the very end, they say. But it doesn't have to be this way. And it's up to you. And she said, it's so stressful. And I feel like, wait, why is it up to me? And I'm supposed to be getting good grades and getting into college and taking the SAT, and now I have to save the environment also, and I'd be like,

Cory Connors: 26:11

I think she's right. it's too much pressure being put on by the people that make these movies and these documentaries. And, what about putting some of that onus on the people that caused the problem or originally, some of those, big companies or, maybe other forces at work. Yes.

Allison Rak: 26:28

Yes. We can all. Yeah. So I think it's good to give them all a voice. So, yeah, but put your students in touch and, and, they can be part of the. Give their opinions of nothing else and take some of that, let them have a voice and yeah, that, that would be great.

Cory Connors: 26:42

thank you so much, Alison. I really appreciate your wisdom. Thank you very much.

Allison Rak: 26:45

Okay.