Sustainable Packaging
Industry Experts discuss all the new materials and ways that packaging can be more sustainable and how we can do our parts to help recycle and reuse. Sustainable Packaging is and will continue to affect us all in our daily lives. We have lots of fun and get down to the real data of what's working to help our planet!
Sustainable Packaging
Dr. Andrew Hurley / Founder of The Packaging School . com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/drandrewhurley/
https://packagingschool.com/
How was the packaging school started?
What are students studying at Clemson in their packaging program?
How will compostable packaging affect soil?
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https://ororapackagingsolutions.com/
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https://www.linkedin.com/in/cory-connors/
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This podcast is an independent production and the podcast production is an original work of the author. All rights of ownership and reproduction are retained—copyright 2022.
Welcome to Sustainable Packaging with Cory Connors. Today's guest is my friend, Dr. Andrew Hurley. He is the founder of thepackagingschool. com and much more. I'll let him explain the rest of his duties, but it's been a long time coming. Very excited to have you on, sir. How are you?
Dr. Andrew Hurley:I'm doing well, Corey. It's it's an honor to be here. Thank you so much for the invitation.
Cory Connors:Yeah. Can you fill us in on the rest of your duties? I know you have several titles.
Dr. Andrew Hurley:Yeah. my day job is a university professor and I get to play an entrepreneurial role there. The university I work for, Encourages entrepreneurship, and there's no better connection than packaging to that. So my course I teach is in, consumer product goods development and, have worked with students and all different types of stakeholders to, create different organizations like the packaging school and bring that to the market.
Cory Connors:It's really innovative and it's exciting. I'm happy to be a part of it. And I've done one course and look forward to doing more as we move forward in our relationship. But before we get into talking about the really cool place where you are and some more things, let's talk about your background. What got you into packaging?
Dr. Andrew Hurley:No, man, I've. I've been an entrepreneur since I was in elementary school. I, I started casting old school, rare, creepy crawlers. If you remember these things, my dad and like stuff, no one had it. I printed comic books. I, and I ended up spending a lot of time like molding and painting pewter figurines for, gamey things. I made soap and what I learned about packaging really early in my life because it's the most important aspect. To bring in any of these things to market, even if you're just taking something to school, right? Right. When I got on eBay as a kid and I, this whole world of direct to consumer commerce opened up to me. And before I was 16, I was an eBay power seller and I had true empathy for what. Packaging means in terms of its cost, its influence on product damage and its influence on returns. I just felt on a daily basis, the impact of dealing with packaging. So that's, that's how I got into it. And I've never left.
Cory Connors:Wow. Started young. Well done. Good for you. I think that's a motivation for a lot of younger people to realize that you can start young. You can start now as a teenager or even younger. My, my son is 11 and he wants to sell things on eBay. So we're encouraging him to do that. and now it's all set up. when you started it, it was probably a little more difficult, to get going. But well, let's talk about the packaging school, com. this is a online school accredited by, Clemson. Is that correct?
Dr. Andrew Hurley:So the packaging school is a, is its own company. And it's Genesis, is with Clemson University. So, taking a step back, how all of this happened, it began over a decade ago and I will, this is pre COVID of course. And I was, I received a lot of questions from folks in the industry. almost on a daily basis, people asking, do you have any educational offerings, for working professionals or. Programs where I can get up to speed because, packaging, right? And most people don't know that. Nearly everything they do touches packaging, whether they are aware of that or not. So once someone aha moment, they're like, Oh my gosh, I actually deal in packaging all day and they seek it because, there's people out there that, and. That, that they want to be the expert in what they do. They want to be as most efficient as possible. They want to learn the language of their day to day. And outside of going to a trade show for a couple of days and becoming like overwhelmed, they're just, there isn't verse yourself and learn this subject matter from an unbiased. perspective. And so I saw that early on in, in my academic career and developed a professional packaging curriculum. And at Clemson, I took that to the Clemson University Research Foundation. It would be like if a professor had a invention or patents or something like this is where you would take your intellectual property. And so actually the Clemson University Research Foundation took ownership over that curriculum and, it's just so awesome to work for an employer that encourages entrepreneurship, because it really is a win for the employer and for the, the inventor. Right? And so, created, a, Put me into the MBA program where I met my partner, in the business and they created a, they put us through an incubator, accelerator program. And, we launched packaging school, which has an ex is the exclusive licensee of a professional packaging curriculum developed at Clemson University. So that's, that's kinda the long story of, that connection between the two entities.
Cory Connors:Well, that's exciting. And, like you said, it's very unique. And, oftentimes people will ask me, how do I learn more about a specific thing in packaging? And I'll send them to my podcast and to your school. So I see those as two real, great avenues to learn. And, It's an exciting opportunity these days to, to be able to have everything at your fingertips. Just what do you want to know about? What do you want to be an expert in? so well done. Congratulations to you and the team there. Awesome job. So, you are standing currently in a And I was, I, this wasn't part of the questions I had, but I'm fascinated by this. I know that you use this store in your, research for, retail packaging. Can you tell us about it?
Dr. Andrew Hurley:Sure. So. I'm actually standing at, Package Insight by Quad. It's a, I found myself in downtown Greenville, South Carolina today. And I was like, where am I going to do this podcast from? And I was like, Oh, we've got, I've got access to a test lab. So actually behind me is 10, 000 square feet of like modular space where it's set up for retail environments, C store environments, apparel, you name it, wherever packaging lives, in the retail market. this can be mocked up where, new designs can be tested. And so actually what's going on and where you cannot see is they've got a couple hundred people coming in today, wearing eye tracking glasses and going in and shopping and are able to track at 50 times per second. What people look at. Really develop a return on investment or quantify the impact of a package design to see if they should move forward with that or maybe stick with what they have and learn a whole lot in the process. It's
Cory Connors:amazing to me that I've seen, Shannon and the team from, and you from Quad, talking about how it works. And to me, it's totally fascinating how they use this eye tracking, software and glasses, to see what. sparks attention and gathers interest from a shopper. can you tell us a little bit about that? Like, maybe an example of a brand that has changed their packaging because of this study?
Dr. Andrew Hurley:I would say, well, first of all, unseen is unsold, right? And when you think about the process of making a purchase decision, packaging is that silent salesperson. It is screaming as loud as it can on the shelf to grab that attention. So attention is everything. So Understanding how you're seeing, how fast you're seeing, how long you're seeing, and then what distracts your customer to and from your product. it's really essential for any product developer. And so hundreds of companies, use this process and technology, to really understand strategic, research questions. And I think. I think a good way to summarize is that we work with a lot of, companies that are interested in making an investment and maybe a certification or a claim or, maybe a partnership with a joint venture with a brand and they want to understand, is this going to move the needle for me? Should we spend all this time and energy on it? And a technology like, this can really understand it from your target market, or, alternative markets to, understand the impact or an influence that a design change will have on, Decision making, the technology can also be used just an unboxing. Actually, I spent a lot of my time. It's just that, procedural unboxing process because how we perceive things in our homes are very different because you've already invested in it. So the packaging is really communicating. That brand equity, the quality, the, all of your expectations are coming in at once. And it is, packaging can have a huge influence on propensity to return. And that's our
Cory Connors:review. Well said. That is so true that, we're building a relationship with consumers when we supply them with items. And, if their experience with that item, with that, how it's packaged, how it's, how it dispenses from the box or the packaging, If that's a good experience, they're likely to come back as long as the quality of the product is good. it's really important for us to think about that as packaging designers and, salespeople. Well said. So you've been working on some very interesting experiments with something that's really interesting to me, compostable packaging. Yeah. are you ready to talk about some of those results or, maybe tell us some of the things that happened that surprised you?
Dr. Andrew Hurley:So I can, with graduate student research, it's. It's true research. You have no idea the rabbit hole you're going down. Right? Oh, what I can talk about today is the hypothesis and setting up the experiment. and then I'd love to come back and tell you the results because we just made our 1st harvest and we are in the process of collecting all the information, but. To step back a bit, the hypothesis is, is compostable packaging good for the soil? Which is it good for our for plants, which can translate to is it good for human health? Right. And is, does it influence any of that process? And so we set up an experiment where we used a base soil of sand, really no nutritional value. And then we have a control of just sand. And, we found a particular type of lettuce that has the highest uptake possible because plants, they don't eat, they drink. And so we want, we wanted to take something that would, have the highest ability to uptake materials. And then we found some compostable packaging, a fiber based package, and we composted it and we added it in various concentrations to the sands. We started off with 0 percent compostable packaging, just sand, and we added a little bit, like 10%, all the way up to 100%. Of just completely composted packaging that we're trying to grow this lettuce and so we have taken measurements of the soil. We've taken measurements of the plant itself, the roots and all of these different concentrations. And we. Delivered, equal, it's called hogland solution, the fertilizer that makes use to have control. but what was interesting, at least my initial takeaway out of the samples that we've done is that the higher the concentration of the packaging that we composted. We did see an influence on plant growth. And so we are, I'm really excited to dive into these results and, to have a better comprehensive understanding of the influence that compostable packaging has on. Has on our food and so can't wait to give you more insight. So there's just a little teaser there for you.
Cory Connors:Well, I definitely want to have you on again to talk about that. And more, this is a big debate in the industry is, people are saying, well, compostable packaging is inert. It won't affect anything, or, They're saying that in a positive way, or they're saying that in a negative way, like it doesn't add value to the soil. So this is a problem. and I've heard panels on both. I've heard discussions on both sides. I've heard some people say it's poisonous. I've heard some people say it's, nutritious. So we're gonna, I can't wait to see the results of this study. so we'll plan, another podcast here in a few months. But, do you personally think, compostable packaging will be a part of a sustainable packaging
Dr. Andrew Hurley:future? It always has been, and it always will be. Eggs, bananas, nuts, oranges, corn, avocados. they all come in fantastic, safe, and sustainable compostable packaging, right? Very true. Yes. So, I believe that compostable materials They should come from the earth and then return to it. However, most, if not all, synthetic compulsive materials include adhesives, binder, catalysts, waxes, mold inhibitors, and heavy metals that may limit the growth of plants. Potentially be a nutrient, when you look at carbon based sources, you're like, oh, this is great. We're going to have some nutrients. We're going to have water holding capacity. These are great for plants, but it could be very well the opposite of a nutrient. We've got a whole lot of metal in it. It could be toxic, right? And limit growth. So there are, I think. Clean packaging technologies, like eggs, banana peels, nutshells, really are the goals. Like we already have a really, some great, fantastic examples to look at and understand. And, so I am a big believer. It was the original package.
Cory Connors:I love that. And things like banana leaves, have been used for, decades, maybe centuries to package things in other countries. even, well, all over the world, really, sustainably and, compostable, easily composted. so that kinds of thing is really interesting to me. I'm excited to see how, like you said, how does that come to fruition? How do we use that nationally? I know there have been issues with compostable packaging having a lot of contaminants in it. People assume something is compostable and it isn't actually. So we need to be very clear with marking on packaging like that. I'd like to talk a little bit more about your students at Clemson. are you finding students to be very focused on sustainability?
Dr. Andrew Hurley:Absolutely. not only do we have like a course in sustainable packaging, but I think that every faculty member and the program leverages the lens of sustainability and everything that they teach. me personally, I integrate innovation, materiality, budget and impact like environmental impact and all of the private. I teach students on project oriented things, not a multiple choice exam, but you're going to build a consumer package. Good. Right? I love that. and so what I teach students. Is a paradigm of sorts of, I've tried to wrestle. if you look at some definitions for sustainability, it's, 2 pages long, right? Or 25 bullet points. It's hard to digest that and make sense of it as someone new. I've been, actually, a mentor of mine, Dr. Younger from, the Berlin university that teaches packaging. he said it in such a beautifully succinct way. He says, our goal should be to aim towards a hundred percent PCR, that post consumer recycled content. And it makes sense, right? Cause these materials exist on the planet. We're currently have infrastructure to collect them and return a high percentage of them, hopefully. So it makes sense, but the reality is that it may be impossible for you to have a high PCR. Actually, if you look at paper mills in the US, there's limits, right? Or globally, you just, we can't make some of the materials, but technologies are improving. So the next. Thing. If you can't get a hundred percent PCR, it would be a hundred percent recyclable material. So we're using virgin feedstocks and we're moving that into something that can be recycled and going into the process. but then that might not be possible. and my favorite example is the Cucumber, right? Which has a hundred percent virgin non-recyclable film over it. And you're, this doesn't fit the paradigm of sustainability, but the third one, as Dr. Young has said, was to ensure that the packaging in enhances or extends the life of the product and lightweight film, which is not recyclable, it's going to live in a landfill, does extend the life of that cucumber at a magnitude level above not. And having it and so in many cases, we would certainly trade, that material and its weight for the weight of that food. It makes sense. and healthcare medical applications, food applications, you could even say that is a sustainable innovation. So that's, that's what I embrace. Everyone has a different flavor. but that's how I've. on sustainability. And I've seen a lot of interesting work from the students who have thought in these ways and develop their solutions.
Cory Connors:You and I are definitely on the same page there. I think that's, what we need to look at, reduction in, in, in waste, in food waste is, critical, for our society. And, talk about a great life cycle analysis when we can look at extending the life of fresh food, especially to deliver to parts of the world that don't have the ability to grow things like, like cucumbers or, bananas or whatever the case may be. Yeah, well said. So you're a real thought leader in the industry and I've always looked up to you. I would love to know what your thoughts are on new sustainable innovations. Is there anything that you're seeing that's exciting to you?
Dr. Andrew Hurley:Oh yeah, there's always, packaging is just Always evolving. It's a, the sum of all these really for profit technologies that exist on the planet and they come out every day. there's a few things I don't know if I'd call it an innovation, but I, you mentioned LCA and I didn't think about this prior, but I do think that our industry needs to think, develop metrics that make sense for us and the quantification of sustainability. I feel that there is a. the public opinion of what is sustainable and you look at that in, in terms of a life cycle analysis. So for instance, a fiber based packaging, compostable packaging versus your, landfill lightweight, PET laminate film for a meal product, the carbon footprint of these perceived sustainable materials could be five to seven times higher than that. In some surveys we've done recently, in our research, we found out that if consumers know about this, understanding that the difference of the footprint, which they considered to be the most important metric, they actually a significant majority make a switch. To selecting landfill destined packaging. And so I think in terms of innovations, I think an innovation that will come out of necessity is clearly defined metrics for the materials that we use. And because, an LCA can measure all different types of environmental impacts. And so we need to figure this out as an industry versus having someone. Really dictate to us, what is the future? so that's 1 thing to consider. I'm also when I look at. the current landscape of the, logistics and transport industry, I'm excited about EVs and mainly because we have looked at certain packaging materials that I consider really great inert materials, like glass, they're heavy and, that heaviness directly relates to tailpipe emissions, but when we think about EVs, My thought is, wow, that whole equations now messed up because we, glass may make sense, right? I know there's other, there's pros and cons still, but the whole, impact and environmental impact will change, when you consider Evie. So, I think that's a very interesting concept when we look at, the future and, tailpipe emissions, I also feel that in the same realm of automotive, I feel that autonomous vehicles are going to revolutionize the way that we interact with products. you can hail an apple cart to show up at near your home and stop right from it. There may not even be packaging involved in that. that's pretty interesting to me. And, so that's interesting and I'm also very interested about. home disposal of materials I, when you mentioned food waste and packaging waste, and this idea of composed ability, there are technologies out there. they're, at their infant stage right now, but I do believe we will have home appliances where we're just going to toss things into and it will create a product that we can use around, our homes and communities and gardens, but also monetize. I believe packaging has value people. We currently have to pay and take time to move my materials to, their end of life recycled markets. I think all these technologies I just mentioned with EVs, autonomous vehicles that all that will change and finally, the consumer will be able to extract value for the investment they made in packaging. And when that comes, it's going to be super exciting. It's going to be revolutionary. And, I, I can see it, all the. Thank you. It's pieces to that puzzle are here. we just had to put them together. So it's pretty exciting.
Cory Connors:Very well said it is exciting. I agree with you. we love our Lomi, composter at home. It's really cool. And it's totally affected the way we live every day. And we throw our eggshells and banana peels in there and all the food scraps. And, they say Americans produce one pound of food waste. Every day. Each one of us. And that's a lot. It's a lot to deal with. I don't know if that number is still exactly accurate, but it's, I think it's pretty close. Thank you, sir. Really appreciate you, Dr. Hurley. This has been a great, podcast. Can you tell us how to get in touch with you
Dr. Andrew Hurley:and your team? Sure. you can find me on LinkedIn. that's a easy one to do or me at dr. Andrew Hurley. com or, reach out to anybody over at info at packaging school. com. So those are three, three easy ways to get ahold of me. if you need anything from testing to education or yeah, just have a conversation about packaging. Thank you, sir. Really appreciate your time. Thank you, Corey.
