Resourcify CEO / Gary Lewis

https://www.resourcify.com/en/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/circular-gary/

An amazing experience interviewing Mr. Gary Lewis the CEO of Resourcify. they are making a big impact in Europe on how companies recycle their materials. 

What is Resourcify? 
What is being done in Europe to recycle more materials? 
How can companies be more sustainable? 

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/packaging-today-show/id1656906367

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Packaging Today Podcast 

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https://www.linkedin.com/in/cory-connors/

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Transcript

Cory Connors: 0:15

Welcome to sustainable packaging with Cory Connors. Today's guest is Mr. Gary Lewis, who is the CEO of Resourcify. Gary Lewis: Hey Gary. Hi. Hi, it's very nice to be here, Cory . I really appreciate you coming on. We met in a recent panel about packaging and sustainability over there,

Gary Lewis: 0:33

In for which you got up, but around two o'clock in the morning, if by memory, so to speak correctly,

Cory Connors: 0:38

I was not fully awake, but I was there. Yeah, miss our friend, our mutual friend, Connor hill asked me to be a part of that. And I always say do my best to be there for him. And so that was great that we got to meet, but I, I'm excited to talk about you and, and Resourcify . So can you tell us a little bit about your background and how you got here?

Gary Lewis: 0:59

Yeah, absolutely. So a warm, a warm hello to everyone. First of all. I was born in England. I grew up in New Zealand and I've been living in Germany for the last, almost coming up on 10 years now, which is a, it's a scary number. Yeah. I love technology. I love sustainability. My background is in engineering. Yeah, I studied, studied that and worked in the shipping industry after afterwards. So that gave me the opportunity to see a lot, do a lot. I think I've worked in, in over 60 countries during that time period spent a lot of time in shipyards and had a very unique window in, into the world.

Cory Connors: 1:37

Tell us about Resourcify cuz I think it's a fascinating business that you've started. Can you tell us what you.

Gary Lewis: 1:43

We are a commercial waste management and recycling. Which is way more exciting than that sounds. So what we do is we help companies bring their zero waste visions to life. You've got a lot of educated listeners, which, you know, we listen to your podcasts. So I would, you could imagine us like a, like a European Rubic con. So yeah, we wanna create something, that's say like a reversed Amazon. Something which truly brings us forward as a society. And what we do is is we help companies with more sustainable waste management. So we work together with some of the biggest companies in Europe, like you know, like McDonald's Johnson and Johnson Frauport. I mean, I can name a lot of names American listeners might not, might not know them, but they're, they're big companies, big waste producers. And what we have is is this operational platform for, for managing recycling, which is a very. You know, complicated topics. So things like orders, contracts, documentation, reporting and everything which basically sets then a very solid foundation for then going on and optimizing your waste management. And that's, that's what we do. So yeah, we, we help companies really digitize waste management and use that as a stepping stone. Into becoming more innovative circular with the waste management into resource management, you know, and kind of go, go on that journey fully digital, transparent, centralized but sustainable and that's, I.

Cory Connors: 3:03

Yeah, that's the, that's the whole thing. Right. And we're excited about how you are helping companies move forward in the right direction. And not eliminating waste, but handling it correctly. As I think that's where we have to start. And and then you are taking them to the next level. Even better and providing some numbers to them like, Hey, last year you did this this year, you did that. Is that right? Is that kind of you're setting a primer and then you are, and then you are able to analyze off of that.

Gary Lewis: 3:35

Yeah, absolutely. You know, and Corey, if you could say a few words about, you know, how that works also in the packaging space, cuz that's, you know, that's very, that's one niche of what we do and we, we have all these, you know, we have over I think 260 waste streams and counting over the platform. So packaging is obviously a very big, very important vertical of that. But the question we try and answer is just really, how do companies increase their recycling rates? And, you know, not in 10 years, but, but now what can they do now to stop burning? What can they do now to, yeah. I mean, luckily in Europe, landfill, it's not such a thing anymore, but you know, it's answering that question and, and how do we answer that with economics? How do we make it cheaper, faster, better. And our answer to that is obviously through, through digitization and using that to really unlock the opportunities of, of the market. Yeah.

Cory Connors: 4:21

So I've had a couple experiences recently that I wanted to talk through with you. One, I was at a a sandwich shop not really fast food, but a sandwich shop and a global chain mm-hmm and their waste receptacle had a small hole for recycle and a large oval for trash. And you look down in there and they both go in the same back and I just, it made me think of you because I think there's a, that's a lot of what happens in the world right now. Unfortunately, and I think that's where you guys can come in and say, listen, we're gonna provide you the two bins or show you how to buy the two bins and what to do with those materials. Once they're in the bins, is, is that pretty accurate?

Gary Lewis: 5:09

Well, I, I would love to even understand that deeper. I mean, we don't want a name drop here, but . I mean, no, that, that sounds terrible. Is that, is that the case everywhere? That you see, or is that, that an abnormality, would you say

Cory Connors: 5:22

it's? I would say it's becoming less frequent which is really good. I think it's getting to a point where there's even. Almost too many cans. And so people don't understand them how they work. Mm-hmm , mm-hmm , you know, I was at the airport recently. I don't remember which one I've been traveling quite a bit lately. And somebody dropped something into something that said recycle and it was definitely not recycling material. And this is where the big issue comes. Right. How do we sort it. Gets in the wrong bin. But I think you, what your program does is more make it easier for the brand and the company to separate that material in the facility and then ship it to the right areas. Is that, is that kind of more what you do along with the digital report?

Gary Lewis: 6:10

Yeah. So that goes in the right direction. I mean, there's two things that we see. I mean, there's a couple of mega trends that you're touching on there. Obviously we have kind of, and, and, and, and, and the jury's not out, which of these are better. Right. So, right. We see. In Europe in Germany, for example, a reverse trend away, especially in consumer areas. FRA you mentioned airports, right? I'm gonna mention airports of Fraport airport. You know, they were separating hundreds of hundreds, but many things for consumers also at all of the German train stations, they had separation on every, every sort of what are these things called? Gly? Everywhere a train comes in, right. Pins, everywhere, pins, everywhere.

Cory Connors: 6:51

Terminal is what I think we would

Gary Lewis: 6:52

call that. Yeah, something like this. They were separating, you know a five and it's not many right. But five things everywhere. And actually they, they, they went away from that. They went to one single collection thing because what they realized was you need education. Education is part of this. And they actually started to do post sort. They said, you know what? We have so much contamination nobody's throwing the right things in the, in the right bins here in a public scenario. That they will actually, you know, do sorting afterwards. And this can be very effective. We see that also in a, in a large city where I'm currently Hamburg, they've introduced, what's called kind of a valuable a container where, where you can throw really many things in there. And then they have a very. Good sorting facility, which sorts all of that out. So that's one trend, which I would, I would say, I see at least in the consumer area to just make things easier. But we see interestingly the opposite and that's the other trend. We see the opposite for businesses. And quite frankly, right now for businesses, it's just too hard, too difficult to recycle things. And the reason there is not so much the actual separation, it is the administration. It's the effort, it's the contracting. It's the tracking, it's the payments. It's everything around that which makes that hard. But the actual separation is, is easy. So we have some customers which separate over 80 different waste streams. Wow. Now that sounds like a lot, but we are talking here about a facility where. It's huge. They have over 10,000 employees working on this one facility. And if you have the right container at the right place and you put one of these lids on it, right where you show, okay, this should go in there. As you mentioned then you know, you get around this. So we see these two trends. I think the jury is not out, which is gonna be the better one, but I guess at the end a mixture of both, but yeah, your question was, what do we do? How do we support that? I mean, ultimately we want a circular economy, right? So how do we, how do we get there? We get there by. Closing the loop. And what does that mean? So it basically means that everything which we have should in one way or the other, get back to wherever it came from to be reused for whatever it should be in the future. And that means collecting and that means transporting, and that means pro whatever it means, processing or trading on them reusing, but so containers What do you have? Where does it go? And we, I, I believe very strongly in this. I think in the future, we will see thousands of different types of waste being collected. We have it already. You just don't think about it. So right. Had a batteries, phones, apple has their own you know, recycling program and this and that. And we will have this in the future for all products I believe. And you need a way to manage that. You need to a way to make sure that it's easy and fast and simple and. We, we will end up there one way or the other, we think so. Yeah. That's, that's we need a way to manage that. And that's what we do. We have this operational system for managing this complexity and making it just as easy to recycle one thing as it is to recycle hundreds of things by just basically doing it correctly.

Cory Connors: 9:49

Right and doing it the first time. And like you said, not having to sort it again making sure the education is there first, before you put the bin or saying, forget the education. Let's, we're really good at sorting. So let's put it all in one bin. So I like those two tracks. I think they're both very valuable. And I think there's a lot of companies most companies are trying to become zero waste and it's exciting to, that's what I was so excited to interview you because I think this is such a valuable you know, service that you're providing. And I think a lot of companies will, will be reaching out to you almost in a panic because eventually it'll just say, you know, Hey, the government will. You gotta be zero waste let's right now.

Gary Lewis: 10:34

So , it's coming. It's coming. Yeah. We're seeing it with all the question. There is probably lost the definition. Right. Right. So, I mean, what, what's your definition? What's your definition for zero waste? I'd be very interested. Oh,

Cory Connors: 10:44

yeah, I think well I think it's zero waste to landfill and I think that's the that's the full definition is your, your company is not delivering anything into the trash mm-hmm it's it's it's sorting with the intent of recycling. Or composting and, or reusing. And I think that's where zero waste becomes so valuable is we're just not dumping it into the landfill. It's that's not sustainable long term. Mm-hmm I, I heard someone saying we're running out of room in a landfills, which I, I don't know if that's accurate yet, but I'm sure it will be eventually and. It just makes positive sense to stop mining raw materials when we can reuse what we have in my opinion.

Gary Lewis: 11:33

And it's already there. Right? So if we look at those main material streams, let's, let's take paper, paper, incredible example of what a sector economy can be. So, so yeah, it's definitely definitely feasible. I mean, I would and that's super interest. I think it's really interesting. Right. So I would, I would I think Europe, I'm not speaking for Europe. Yeah. I'm not gonna take that position.

Cory Connors: 11:53

I would. That's a big step. Yeah. That's a big step.

Gary Lewis: 11:56

No one can do that. There is no, no one can do that. Yeah. This leaf politics is start though. Yeah. Basically I, I, I would stretch that definition. I would say that zero waste means material usage. So lamb filling is, you know, one thing, but burning, we need to stop the burning. Yeah, I think, and you know, if you stop lamb filling and that's happening in your, a lot of things then end up in incineration and someone will probably comment on this. If they listen and say incineration is fantastic. There's two levels. You know, you were talking about thermal recovery. Is the buzzword. So it means you get energy back out from it. Yes. I understand that. But you know, if we burn everything, there's nothing left. That's kind of my very basic point here. So I would, I would stretch that, but of course, I mean, if you're, you know, thermal recovery is better than am Phillip. Absolutely. But material or reuse usage is better than, than everything. So.

Cory Connors: 12:47

Yeah. Yeah. I think of you know, the burning for fuel and, and the things like that. People are doing the incineration and it reminds me of that movie, the Lorax you know where they're just cutting the tree, cutting the tree, cutting the tree. And it just, at a certain point we're outta trees and you know, we're not, why would we do that when we can recycle or reuse. Just, you know, yeah. To me, I think you and I are on the same page there, but I understand that there is positive. You know, if, if the alternative is landfill, that's the only other option then. Yeah. Let's use that material for energy. But I agree. I think long term. Sustainable is recycling and

Gary Lewis: 13:31

reuse. Yeah. Yes. And if anyone wants to, to debate that, I would say let's start talking about Easter island and go from there.

Cory Connors: 13:39

right. Very, very good. Very good point. Well, can you tell us a, a story of a time when your company, you felt like, Hey, we made a really big impact there, or, or a funny story., if you would rather do that.

Gary Lewis: 13:53

Recycling is, is many things, but it's really funny. So I, I don't have too many to fall into that basket.

Cory Connors: 14:00

Yeah. Can you think of a time when, you advised a company and it was a really big impact, you just felt like, okay. That we made a big difference there.

Gary Lewis: 14:09

Yeah, I mean, of course I wanna say now everyone that we worked with has had that delightful experience, but it's always a similar journey that we see. Yeah. Good. So you can imagine it like this before resource fire. What's the status quo. The status quo is big companies have complicated expensive waste management. It's expensive because it's complicated and vice versa. Right? They have one recycler that does everything because that's what you need. You need someone who says I will take care of this. But what these guys do is they do a lot of setup contracting, so they don't actually do stuff. It's the classic kind of middleman thing. Mm-hmm so you have most companies before resource, you have one recycler that does everything and to take a very bad example, right? They burn everyth. That's not a hundred percent true. It's an oversimplification, but still if we want to get to a net zero society, that means we need to be treating all of our resources in a fantastic way. And that means collection and, and therefore complexity. So before resource, if I one recycle after resource, you find. We, we have Hornbach to take an example. It's a, it's a retail chain in, in Europe, they're in around six European countries. They have now over hundred recyclers, I think it's around 116 recyclers. So at many facilities, multiple recyclers for multiple resource streams, they've integrated take back systems. They've integrated reuse systems, circular, circular loops, almost. For what they're selling. And they're doing all of that with the same team that they had before. So no, they didn't have to hire anyone else. They didn't have any extra costs, no more efforts. They now also have fully digital insights into what they produce, where it goes, who gets it, what they pay. Or what they earn and money. Yeah. Especially with the paper prices at the moment. Yeah, so the goal was more recycling and we supported them with that. It was a great partnership. They also helped us a lot. But yeah, more recycling, less administration. And it's always a similar story. Companies are often on this journey of. And figuring out what to do. And, and they go from, you know, waste management to, to recycling, to to really resource management and where we all wanna see them in the future is secularity, which means whatever that means for everyone. Right. So different. It's always, it's always a similar, similar journey that we see. Yeah, and you can save costs, right? So the ultimate effect is you save 30, 40% of your costs, which is huge, which you can reinvest. If you want back into doing cool things around circularity, recycling and initiatives, like, like this.

Cory Connors: 16:45

Yeah. Or hire more employees to make more of your product or yeah. To grow your business. Yeah. I'd love it. Yeah. Well done. Are you guys only in Europe right now? Or are you international?

Gary Lewis: 16:59

We are only in Europe. So Europe, you know, you've got a lot of languages, you've got a lot of borders, you've got a lot of requirements. We have the European waste regulation, which dictates how things should work in Europe. So we have a common market but we are operationally only, only serving serving Europe. The reason for that is because it just works here. Yeah. And if you have a market. Let's take a market, maybe somewhere else in, in, in Asia where you might not have a commercial market, you might not have commercial recyclers or, or, or facilities or things like that. It's you don't need such an operating system that, that we offer. I would make maybe even the case in a, in, in the states that it's not necessary depend. Depending on the individual markets. Right? So if you take a place in, you know, in the middle of your great country there's maybe there's not so, so many opportunities there, so many different facilities where you can get your stuff and we don't have those type of problems in Europe. We have. By our estimates, you know, around 20, 25,000 waste management companies spread across Europe. Wow. So in our city alone there there's 45 different commercial recyclers. We're 1 million people here. So we are talking recycling at a different scale in Europe. So that's why we're focusing here. First of all. Yes, that seems

Cory Connors: 18:06

like a lot. Isn't that a lot? It just seems. But I don't know. I guess I don't have a, a, a measure. Maybe our recycling companies are larger and more, more national.

Gary Lewis: 18:18

Yeah. I don't wanna pretend to be an expert on the American.

Cory Connors: 18:20

I've never looked at those numbers. Yeah. Yeah.

Gary Lewis: 18:23

But I, I think it will be vastly more many more in the. If we really think about what needs to happen, this sector, I guess, will, will be growing a lot. So

Cory Connors: 18:32

I agree. And the ones that are there , will grow and, and be more efficient and more, able to handle more different kinds of materials and things like that too. So, yes, yes. Yeah.

Gary Lewis: 18:43

Very true. The future we wanna see. Yeah.

Cory Connors: 18:46

Are are the issues similar in D. Countries, or do you find like in Germany, this happens and in this country, this happens or , do you get educated as you go into different countries about the different systems,

Gary Lewis: 18:59

Italy potentially being on one extreme of the spectrum? Yeah. They have . Are they challenged? Let's just say. I mean to answer your question. So yeah. Companies use a lot of resources full stop. It doesn't matter where you are, what company you are. If you have a thousand people working somewhere you will use or consume a lot. And that's okay. You know, if you handle this, your, what you've got, okay. It's like money, right? If, if you have a lot, but you spend a lot, you have a. So if you have a lot of resources but use in the correct way, you know, then that's fine. So we see a, obviously this is the similarity that is true in every country, no matter where you are in the world in Europe, we use a lot of resources. In Germany, we used a lot of resources, you know, last year we used around, I think 1.6, 1.7 billion, tons of raw materials. We only got back around 200 million tons of that via recycling. So already in Germany, which is, I would say a. Quite advanced with the recycling. There is a long way to go. And that's true everywhere. So anywhere where resources are used, they can be reused. And that's the issue. I think, which that's the baseline issue which countries have, and the regulations within the markets define how that problem should be solved. But from an operational level, you have materials that should be picked up and delivered somewhere and reused. This is the same, no matter where you are, I would say. Well

Cory Connors: 20:19

said, , and it's such a simple, but so big such a large concept that needs to be embraced by the world, I think. Yeah. Yes. So what's next. We we wanna get all your contact information out to everybody. How, how can people reach you?

Gary Lewis: 20:34

I'm very reactive over LinkedIn. So yeah, if you want to get in touch or share, share some hate messages, move for me about what I said today. You're free to do that. Let's let's have a debate. Yeah, I I'm available on LinkedIn. Yeah.

Cory Connors: 20:49

Excellent. Well, thank you so much, Gary. We really appreciate your time. Is there anything else you wanted to talk about?

Gary Lewis: 20:54

Well, I love packaging as well. I mean, I would've loved to discuss packaging more, but I think this is also such a huge topic. I'm a big fan of the show. I'm really a big fan of yeah. What you doing and the awareness you are bringing to this topic, which is in and of itself. Absolutely huge. And yeah, Tom was on the show last week. That's a huge moment for you. So to switch you a lot of success maybe is closing words, Corey, from my side about the awareness you're bringing to, to this recycling topic, I think it's really. Important and packaging, obviously sustainable packaging, an absolutely huge part at the beginning. Yeah. Of the loop here at the, to solve.

Cory Connors: 21:29

Right. And design for the end of the loop and or , the return to , the beginning. Yeah. Uh, Designing packaging to be reused, designing packaging, to be recycled, I think. And it's such an honor to get, get to interview people like you, Gary and, and Tom Szaky and, and Frederick Dreux from Unilever and all of these people. Amazing. I'm just it just felt so thrilled to be a part of this community of sustainable people. So thank you for your time, sir.

Gary Lewis: 21:57

We appreciate it. Thank you very much. Yeah. Then wish you have a fantastic day. You too, sir.

Cory Connors: 22:01

Thank you. Landsberg Orora for sponsoring the podcast and if you're listening, be sure to subscribe. So you don't miss the next episode and we appreciate it. Thank you so much.