Sustainable Packaging

Is Seaweed the future of sustainable packaging? Flex Sea / Carlo Fedeli / Thibaut Monfort

October 10, 2021 Cory Connors Episode 25
Sustainable Packaging
Is Seaweed the future of sustainable packaging? Flex Sea / Carlo Fedeli / Thibaut Monfort
Show Notes Transcript

https://flex-sea.com/
Can seaweed replace current bioplastics? 
Do you want to fund the future of sustainable packaging? 
Is seaweed the future of sustainable packaging? 
https://www.linkedin.com/company/flex-sea/ 
https://www.linkedin.com/in/carlo-fedeli/

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https://ororapackagingsolutions.com/

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https://www.linkedin.com/in/cory-connors/

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Cory Connors:

Welcome to sustainable packaging with Cory Connors . I'm really excited about this episode today. I've got my friends, Carlo Fedeli , who is the CEO and founder and Thibaut Monfort who is the CTO and founder of Flex Sea . Hey guys, how's it going today? Hi,

Carlo Fedeli:

we're good. Happy to be on the show.

Cory Connors:

If you guys have a really cool company and concept a, it could be a game changer for the packaging industry. I'd love to, I'd love to hear from you how, how you came up with this idea, what was the impetus for it? And, and just introduce yourselves. Thank you.

Thibaut Monfort:

I think I like Carlo gold because he was the one, but the idea,

Cory Connors:

the idea, man. All right.

Carlo Fedeli:

Yeah, it started, well, we'll start at the very beginning of the. The first European lockdown. So we're talking March, 2020. I went back home, many, many students there who was going to master's at the time. Like most of us, I guess we all started ordering much more wanting more grocery shopping's more deliveries, all this plastic coming home and the thoughts, well, we need to do something about it. It's obviously not good. And the whole pandemic is not healthy. So really seeing an increase in the. And I've always been an environmentally aware. I never was. I recycling your three core environmental freak always took care to recycle what they could, I guess, after this is the moment that's correct where it may be. Yeah. But

Thibaut Monfort:

anyways,

Carlo Fedeli:

I decided to, to try and improve it by looking at what exists. The first one that came through my, to mine, to mine. Yeah. It's really the recycling and the recycling issue that basically doesn't work. Recycling is not the true solution. Globally only 7% of plastics recycled because most of it is not actually collected cycling because it requires a reliance on post fuse waste, waste, sorting waste management from the consumer, but then also get all the plastic that reached the facilities is actually either not plastic at all. Maybe it's composite or it's even too dirty or it's too thin, which means that recycle is more just. Unexisting bio-plastics also not an issue. I mean, not a problem there, big issue because well, they, they don't really serve their promises. If you take PLA for example, the most common bioplastic out there, they it's derived from plants, which require articles for land freshwater, pesticides. And the plastic itself, but there's also this it's not even truly compostable or degradable, it's industrial compostable. So unless you've put them at a facility which has a higher than natural temperatures, we're talking 70 plus in Celsius and the very high macrobiotic. Yeah, we'll just stay there pretty much indefinitely, almost as long as

Thibaut Monfort:

petroleum-based plastic. I think this is where we have the, the issue that is commonly referred to as the greenwashing where people use fancy words to say all sorts of things like biodegradable and compostable. But if you don't, if you don't declare the set of properties in which those will occur, That doesn't mean anything, anything is better. The gradable even the regular plastic is biodegradable in a way, if you're leaving for long enough and the ocean eventually will disappear, but yeah. Thirds and of the human will disappear before this. But yeah, th those, the main issue that we saw, and this is where Carla had this idea of how about doing plastics with. Something

Carlo Fedeli:

else. So having seen these issues with this solution, well, we might as well do our, our own solution. And I came up with this this formula, but I don't have a lockdown, just reading lots of papers, seeing what has been done. What's not being done, experimenting all up for a what, four months I came out of lockdown with a prototype that I could create. I could hold in my hand, they have potential. If it's you sort of work for some things and we need to improve it. So I worked for, for a while and the, I start expanding with seaweeds because seaweed is the plant of the ocean and it has unlimited potential. It's massively over produced compared to the actual demander is which even keeps Price low. And it has a lot of, of benefits, seaweed, cultivation promote. So ecosystem is promoted, but it's cultivated and it does not harm the ocean any way, even. It is one of the biggest carbon sequestration is known for money. 85% of the oxygen we breathe comes from the ocean, quite surprising some and yeah, at certain points I realized that not the chemist not sign. My background is in business, so I called up my old friend Peabo who indeed is a scientist, science and engineering. Come on, come on, listen, people have this material kind of working me to be better. If you make it better, you can figure science inside. Let's see what this adventure brings us. This is where we are today.

Thibaut Monfort:

Yeah, it was a pretty weird Sunday morning receiving a call. I was in beds, just barely waking up. I received this call from. Hey TiVo. You want to do plastics with seaweeds? Yes. All right. Back in the days I had been applying for jobs, but just graduated for my master's in materials engineering at Imperial college, London, and I was actually looking for a job in the, up in biomaterials. Sustainability was a plus, but I didn't really have this business side to, to really kick off my own venture and explore the. Entrepreneurship wait. Right. And so in Carlo gave me that call . It was truly the right thing to do at the right moments of the pandemic. Absolutely no jobs. And so right. Let's do it. I know it's been what, five, six. That's

Cory Connors:

fascinating. So when you take seaweed from the ocean and you're, the intent is to turn it into a plastic alternative material. Can you, can you explain to the audience how you harvest the seaweed and. What happens then? So you, do you literally walk out into the ocean and, and, and, and cut it up, or what, how does it go? It's

Thibaut Monfort:

it's close enough. So there's a couple of different steps. I guess the first thing to say is that because of the early nature of a startup, we do not collect our own seaweed yet emphasis on yet, because it's one of the main plans we have in the future. Integrating vert. That can be that step of cultivating the seaweeds, which allows you to have a control over the process, the production, but also the quality of the seaweed. When you have a product like plastic packaging, which needs to be absolutely homogeneous and uniform throughout the batches, you want them to always be the same and using a natural resource is not really a hazard, but it's something that you have. To keep in mind. And this is why having an eye on the cultivation is something we ain't nothing in the future. But for the collection you were saying, do you literally go out there, pick it up? Well, yes. The ways you read his farm is actually pretty simple and which also allows us to keep the production cost really low. You basically have floating rafts or so either you do it in. Offshore and you have those floating rafts or anchored with pieces of rope, literally where you attach bits of seaweeds and then they grow, you cut it and you restart, or you do this in shallow water. Where the ropes are at the very surface of the water. And and it's easier to connect them because you can literally walk out in the water and just collected like this. Yeah. The way you collect it, just cut it. And then you regrow grows or different types of seaweeds that the term seaweed is very broad. It's like saying plants on earth. Right. And knowing how big the ocean is. Immerse lens this quite a lot of species, but the main ones that we're working with arc we, we can cultivate them, which is the main advantage of those and yeah, just go out, pick it up. And the, the great advantage is that it grows insanely fast. We're talking about nearly one meter. And this is the big difference. This is the big difference we were talking about the PLA and starch derived plastics, where you need corn or wheat or cassava or beetroot, for example, even sugar cane. And those take up to six months between every cycle. We'll see you in 45 days, you can have an entire cycle and restart the next one. And that's another great opportunity for upscaling.

Cory Connors:

That's amazing. So you've got the seaweed. You, you, you pull it out of the ocean, you let it dry. I would assume then you grind it up into a powder or what's the next

Carlo Fedeli:

step as a polymer inspection process. And then we basically work her magic and combine it with other ingredients at further we basically come out of the plastic on the other. Like I said that the only a waste produced in this whole system is a well spank seaweed biomass, which could upcycling to a fertilizer or compost and a water B, which in an ideal Ingleside environment, keep in the system to either condense water or even use it to increase the efficiency of not both.

Cory Connors:

It sounds like amazing like an amazing process. So what kinds of plastics will you be able to replace? I know Carlo you and I spoke about those little sachets that hold screws or you know, w what kinds of things, what's, what's the vision for this?

Thibaut Monfort:

So, As we discuss with the whole recycling problem that single use plastics are the biggest issue out there. So we want it to target this in specific, however, even within the single use plastic packaging, there are a lot of subdivisions, a would it be for food or non food applications? You mentioned the screws, but there's a lot of plastic packaging for foods. And actually 70% of it is for the food industry, which has. We won't do aim at, in the eventually. But you also have to consider other properties like dry food or wet foods because the barrier properties of that fill will differ depending on the resource you're using with seaweeds, the, there was kind of a double-edged sword, which we have to sort of tame in a way on the one hand, the fact that this polymer is hydrophilic. Which means a lot of it likes water means it can degrade and water. And that's great. It means you could throw the plastic in the ocean and Flex Sea will degrade . On the other hand, if you use wet foods, well, it will start the degradation, right? So you really have to find this in between where the plastic is lasts. It lasts long enough to protect the foods, but as soon as you're done using it, it's right away. And then it starts degrading. And this is what. Well, this is where I need to have fun. And then that with experimenting and trying to lengthen that the lifetime so we can tailor the blasting to various applications. So I guess a realistic approach would be to start with dry items because it's where we will have the least problems. And the more we develop on the R and D side, the more we will expand to different niches. One of the main problems right now is takeaway foods where the consumption cycle is very fast. So you don't, you might have to deal with the wet foods, but it stays in contact for such a short amount of time that you don't need plastics that will last for 200 years. Come on, man. You will eat your kebab within the next 20 minutes. That's it. I'll give you a 30, but you don't need something that will take 200 years. The great

Carlo Fedeli:

application-wise you. We did talk about this cruise lessons. But our, our end target really is food industry. Not just takeaway just food in general, because the market is much bigger. It's more than twice as much for non-food single use plastic

Thibaut Monfort:

is what hits the consumer most.

Carlo Fedeli:

Yeah. It's where we really, I mean, if we're in this is really because we also want to have an impact, a measurable, tangible impact. And food is working at the biggest impact, the size of the problem within food. Even when it comes to just plastic in general, if we're talking non-food so unless you're working with some perhaps industrial oils, but most of the time, the plastic will not be soil. What the food, 9900, 900 times with plastic is sold, which vendors by definition are

Thibaut Monfort:

recyclable, or you would have to wash it and squishy. More water, more energy. It's not really worth it. Plus I guess one thing we could ask to do, we could add to this is that it returns back to the origin of the idea. We, I mean, Carlo had the idea because of this issue with food packages. So it literally shows how much impact it has on the consumer, because absolutely everyone is a consumer, even a studio then you, everyone is. So that's how.

Cory Connors:

Yeah, that's a great point to go food. Packaging has been a massive issue in the last 16, 18 months because of COVID and you're exactly right. If a lot of people are just putting that material right into the garbage. That's too bad. So I I'm excited to see what you guys can accomplish. Tell us about how at end of life how long does it take to come compost or biodegrade?

Thibaut Monfort:

Right. So this is the touchy side for the simple reason that it's too early for us to know. I'm not sure. Yeah. So w we have done testing basically. When you have a home lab, which used to be his balcony, then his kitchen, then my kitchen and now is my living room. For those watching on YouTube it's actually just behind me. It's hard to have accurate data to store. We are very lucky because we managed to partner up with a university. So the London south bank university, which will allow us to do the testing in specific facilities with experts and to acquire those really specific numbers. I'm not talking just about end of life, but also mechanical resistance, chemical resistance, and all the things I was talking about earlier. For the degradability it's a bit easier to test. You could just leave it in water. And you can see the grant, you can leave it in soil and start seeing the degradation or the the, the, the biodegradation quite literally, because you see that it is being eaten. And for those the initial results were around four to six weeks. However, because the prototype has evolved between then th those numbers kind of old, I wish I could give you more specific information. However, we are looking definitely at something that is within a year in the soil, a big point that a lot of people are forgetting is that yes, degradation in water is cool. Segregation is in soil is cool as well. The most plastics end up in landfills and in landfills, if it's just a pile of plastic, it's not really soil under, and there's not really water. So there's a lot to think about anaerobic degradation, which is just literally out there in the air. And if it's under a pile, it might not have enough expert access to oxygen. So this is the kind of test that we'll also be looking into into doing, because there are not many standards regarding. This is the big issue. There are standards for recycling, those standards for industrial combustibility, but when it comes to home compostability, combustibility, or degradation in seawater, in the freshwater, or just in landfills, it's really hard to recreate those because they vary across the world. And this is where it will put a big, big emphasis on the life cycle analysis. And we'll definitely keep you updated when we have more.

Cory Connors:

So you are doing some life cycle analysis on and this material we are

Thibaut Monfort:

absolutely it's crucial for us because although there are no international organization that like, there is no European law on home combustibility or. As I know there is no FSA law or American law regarding this, but there are some private entities, like there's a lot of coal to Austria, which is one of those entities that give labels and have specific degradation conditions. And those are a way for us to show this compostability and that we add something on top of the regular industrially, compostable polymers, like PLA for instance,

Cory Connors:

That's fascinating. I'm really excited to see what you guys can accomplish with this. It's a, what's the timeframe we're talking about?

Carlo Fedeli:

I'd say we estimate right now. So obviously we're in a process as people said, where in his living room for, for a reason now, because we really like his living room. The reason is that we're entirely, totally bootstrapped. We're looking for funding. So. Anyone listening out there. It is up jokes aside. We, we are looking for funding and we're looking at a wrong way with philosophies between 18 and 24 months. So probably just a couple of years, something under that. If if we're good. To which perhaps we can actually end the R and D process or at least get them a few of the point where we're happy with it. We can say, okay, good. This is market ready. We've had the time to do the degradation studies because obviously if you want test on material of the grades and say three months, four months, well, you need those months to test it. Right? So it's something which is a more time intensive than you might initially. And once we do that, we plan to start a low scale pilot or NDP to have some proof of concept on the market gather market feedback, and then eventually a scale up. So let's say that the, we believe that we can see flexi as a reality on the market by the end of 2020.

Cory Connors:

And do you guys think that you'll get into the production side of things or would you rather license this material to someone who's already making a flexible packaging?

Carlo Fedeli:

So our model actually, as of today is at least initially is to produce it for a simple reason. Our technology is totally blue sky. It's not on the market. There's no see with blasting on the market today. And we don't believe that any large plastic producer, which we just today well risk their reputation as such a new product and supply existing customers

Thibaut Monfort:

and mess up their machinery.

Carlo Fedeli:

It's to produce transform the room of material into the plastic rolls. We're talking a plastic film here and then have those plastic rolls. We can sell them to packagers or large companies with packaging in house. And there'll be able to use those roles under existing machinery. So we won't have to revolutionize their packaging. And the issue of, we also plan to as Thibaut said earlier, to perfectly integrate the selection by producing some of the seaweed. So really those are two revenue streams, and of course we're open to leasing the technology. Once it gains traction who were requested why not? It's good for us. And it's good for the environment.

Thibaut Monfort:

There's lots of different steps. First one is developing the material. It's. And then we read to have this emphasis, as Carlos said, it's the technology to be plug and play. If you want to use a low density polyethylene, you just buy some Rosa polyethylene plug in your machine, and then the Sasha will come out. If you want to stop and use flexi, instead, we need to really have all those numbers and all those properties, just on point so that we created the material. You don't have to care about crew producing the film or anything. We can do that. Or we initially we might partner up with a bigger companies just to lease us some of the machinery so we can do some trials and, and then evolve within those 24 months of the runway that we talked about. But eventually in the end, the products that consumable, just plug and play, just put the roll in and you don't have to worry about anything. We'll give you all the settings on the standard machinery and the product role, just like anything else.

Carlo Fedeli:

There is. Without doubt technology industry call for a product like this right now, simply because of the need for a better alternative to existing plastic and plastic waste management. But because the industry is so big and it's so flexible, if you like, because people will be using a very cheap material for a very long time and it's worked for them. There needs to be an initial knowledge push to break through the.

Thibaut Monfort:

Especially with all the EPR laws, the extended producer responsibility. I think that was one of the positives few weeks ago in the state of Maine where they basically to make it simple to anyone listening, you produce something and those laws make you accountable for whatever happens when the produces the product is being used. So if I do plastic and I make a plastic bag and then use it and you throw it away, This impact is partially my responsibility. And so for companies to get away of this responsibility, there are two of two options either. You don't really adopt the law that then that's really bad. And so the waves into to do this is to adopt new technologies, which will allow you to simply not have to care about those dollars. Well, you don't need to be responsible for. Anything bad happening after your product is being used. If the product just disappears recycling is one of those big things where you have to worry about your product being connected by those waste management streams, transport it to a recycling facility process, and then reintroduced into the markets. Whereas if the material just decomposes after being used like flexi, we don't really have to care about anything. And that's a massive rating for the companies. And it's one of our, one of our main selling arguments that say for this.

Cory Connors:

Yeah, EPR has taken over the state. I live in an Oregon is also adopting the same law or a similar law in the next few weeks here. And we're expecting that to, to trickle down through all the states and then eventually be a national law. My friend runs a PET recycling facility in South Africa and there EPR law goes into effect. And he is getting constant calls about recycling pet and I think you're exactly right. It's going to change all of packaging.

Thibaut Monfort:

Absolutely. Do you

Cory Connors:

guys think you could do rigid plastics with this material?

Thibaut Monfort:

It's not something that we have explored yet. I'd say that semi-rigid is definitely within reach the NGOs. Because we've messed up in the lab a few times. And when you mess around with stuff, you tried to do all that. Let's try to do a big sample this time. Oh, let's try to put more of this and we've ended up with some promising looking things. I don't, I can't really guarantee the final application simply because we haven't done the market research on this. However, the polymers that we're using allow us to have this transition just because of the intrinsic formula. If you vary some of the components of the, the secret magic formula, you will end up with eventually a stiffer material that remains some of the main properties that we're looking for, AK the biodegradability and the whole environmentally friendly aspect. And now I guess that it will be more of a. Product markets study and a price analysis to see whether this is or not a viable option, but in terms of technology itself. Yeah.

Cory Connors:

That's fascinating. Well, congratulations, you guys, this is a really amazing idea and concept. How can our audience get to get in touch with you?

Carlo Fedeli:

You can connect with us on on LinkedIn, on LinkedIn pitch. And otherwise you can drop us an email at flex-sea.com

Thibaut Monfort:

and I guess just visit the websites. The website is flex-c.com. It's pretty easy and we're actually undergoing a little maintenance or the website. So brand new things coming very soon. Stay tuned.

Carlo Fedeli:

We have a contact form as well on the website, little drop down menu and different categories for why you want to call us. So don't be afraid. Say hi, we're always there to welcome you with a smile. And the

Thibaut Monfort:

we're at this early stage where any idea is a good idea. If you have something you think. Might sounds crazy. It wants nothing. Sounds crazy. Tell it, and it will probably be fine. And you might even find the the next big idea, you know, you never know. It's, it's really a fascinating thing that have discovered recently. Thanks to Carlo over the whole entrepreneurship and business side, where in my whole college life, I've always been focused on research where science is. Very disciplines where you always go in a certain direction and you have instructions having that freedom of doing your own things and going in your own direction is something that is absolutely crazy. And none of this innovation would be possible. Without people like you and I having crazy ideas,

Carlo Fedeli:

I guess we could spend maybe an hour just to talk about freedom of

Thibaut Monfort:

and just the crazy ideas we were actually saying. We should have a file where, you know, it's those midnight ideas where you think about something crazy. One day we might do a business about this and that's all, but it's different. Right on the paper, it will end up somewhere and we probably

Carlo Fedeli:

need a whole new podcast just to talk about

Thibaut Monfort:

a hundred

Cory Connors:

percent. Well, I'd love to have you guys back on in a, in a year or so when you're further down the line and you know, get to check in with you guys. Oh,

Carlo Fedeli:

absolutely. You're gonna have to get to us.

Cory Connors:

Yeah. Well, I'd like to thank Landsberg ORORA for sponsoring this podcast. Please. If you're listening, give us a review, tell your friends about it and thank you again for listening to sustainable packaging with Cory Connors. Thanks guys. Thank you.

Carlo Fedeli:

Thank you. Bye. Have a great day. You too.