circular packaging is possible / Connor Hill

Mr. Connor Hill from the United Kingdom is a circularity leadership coach and consultant and has worked with great brands like ADIDAS 
Can Packaging Be sustainable? 
Sustainability is a journey, not an end point 
How to get started towards sustainability? 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/connor-hill-circular-leadership-coach-consultant/

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https://ororapackagingsolutions.com/

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This podcast is an independent production and the podcast production is an original work of the author. All rights of ownership and reproduction are retained—copyright 2022.

Transcript

Cory Connors: 0:34

Welcome to sustainable packaging with Cory Connors . I'm very excited to introduce my guest today. Mr. Connor Hill . He's a circularity leadership coach and consultant. How are you, sir?

Connor Hill: 0:46

Yeah, it's doing really well.

Cory Connors: 0:47

Thanks for having me. Yeah, we've we've scheduled this a long time ago, but you were in the middle of a move. Can you tell us about that and how has that.

Connor Hill: 0:55

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and that, yeah. I mean, with every move you do, you're just so conscious of how much stuff you're consuming. Right. That's right. I think it's easy when you stay in the same house for a long time, you're just like, ah, there's plenty cupboards to hide it in. But yeah, I was just, yeah, really raised of like, wow, again, too much stuff. But I did like found so good with things like Gumtree, Frigo, I guess your Creek list. It just. Before it was clunky. There wasn't many people using it, but now there's so many people on it. You sell stuff like not instantly, but it's so much smoother. So yeah, that's a bit of my experience.

Cory Connors: 1:32

And you moved from Scotland to the UK,

Connor Hill: 1:35

right? Yeah, exactly. So I was up in Scotland before up in Edinburgh and then moved down to London where we were before. COVID so back to familiar ground.

Cory Connors: 1:46

Well, I'm sure it's nice to be home again. Yeah. So I'm very excited to hear about your, your background and kind of how you got into sustainable packaging, sustainability, circular packaging. You could kind of speak to your, your past kind of your path to where you are now.

Connor Hill: 2:04

Yeah, of course. So I studied sustainability at university back in on 2006, so a while ago, and definitely a time when sustainability was not used as a words, as much as it is now. So things have changed a lot in that period. I started my career with marks and Spencers for anyone who isn't aware of them. They are a UK retailer. They do food fashion furniture, and don't know how many stores now, but they used to have around 500, 600 stores. So a big footprint, big parts of the community. And they always wants to be one of the most sustainable retailers in the world, which meant that they had to have a really holistic sustainability strategy, touching every corner from supply. Right the way through to the packaging of their sandwiches. And my role there, or one of the areas I looked after was our timber sourcing and their policy around that to ensure that the packaging was FSC certified and, or PSC and creating what that policy looked like. And every single year, going back to, you know, the laggards within the business and say, come on, you're actually at 70% since then we'll source, how are we going to get this next thing? And we moved to LA in that time, but by the end, we're in the high, high nineties. And we're looking at things like the fingernail abrasive paper that you use, which layers are three different types of wood-based material. And we're trying to find that so got really granular and that's what that taught me. Yeah. Then with Adidas for four years, helping them with their sustainability and start capacity strategy. What happens with all those products, the sale at the end of the life, and trying to create some solutions there. And then really I went independent around this sort of time last year. Because I just, I saw so many people in LinkedIn reaching out saying, Connor, can you help our business? And when you work in houses, everyone will know, you know, your that's your job. And there's very little time to help other brands. So I thought, well, let's give this. Give it a go for 12 months and we're going to sail through that 12 month window. Very, you know, without thinking of going back in-house anyway for the next week while. And I think the majority of our brands, or I thought the majority would be brand clients, helping them with their circularity and sustainability strategy. But as much of it, it's the suppliers, the enablers of the circular economy. I have the people making that circular packaging, that reusable package. And they want to understand how they get in the door at Adidas . How do they get in the door at these big brands? So they can really grow in the right way. So that's a quick snapshot of my back. Well, that's

Cory Connors: 4:35

a fascinating background and I love that. You've been as you said, in-house, and then now consulting outside of that business Adidas is a huge company. Can you speak to a little bit of, of what your focus was there, where we were procuring materials for clothes and shoes or packaging or all things?

Connor Hill: 4:56

Yeah. So so I was very much on the brand side, so how they could make their products a little bit better, lower impact that could be connected to you know, up-skilling internal teams around like the dye processes. So how could you use waterless dyeing? It could be focused on something like the big events. Yeah. So when they're a big sponsor at the world's cup. Okay. How do they create a VIP area, a press area that actually aligns the Adidas strategy as well? So it's about getting people more active, more healthy, so serving , big burgers and Eddie that's the thing doesn't make sense. So how could he even get down to the catering at these things? So it's very, very holistic. As well as the store is like, one of the stores made of, you know, how can you refit a flagship and the most sustainable way? Well, what actually was happening a lot of times, like we don't need to put new stuff in, let's just take the old stuff out, try and recycle as much of it. But in these big flagships, in these big cities, they're old buildings with beautiful, beautiful walls behind. So sometimes actually getting people to see what's there and create value was another part there. But we did workshops as well. Bring in your t-shirt and instead of maybe going to landfill, you know, we'll put print on it, that's customized to you. So you actually love that shirt again, lots of playful, things like that. As well as things more like scaling up, like how has it increased recycled polyester as much as possible? Yeah. In terms of packaging this wasn't an area that was under my remit, but it was definitely a point like many e-commerce brands or brands selling online. Okay, how can we use as little packaging as possible, but also ensure the product still arrives in the condition consumer expects and that the big pain point in the footwear and apparel space is the polybag. It serves a really solid purpose in terms of quality, but it also presents challenges. And so that was something we worked collaboratively, collaboratively with other brands as well, to try and find the best solution.

Cory Connors: 6:57

I have to commemorate you. Adidas is a very sustainable company and would they have a local facility here in Portland, Oregon, where I live huge campus with a giant shoe out front that we drive by all the time. It's just a neat place. And I've had the fortunate ability to go to their employee store a few times. And man, great products. Great, great company. So good.

Connor Hill: 7:21

Yeah. Yeah, it's good. Fun. And then, yeah, they're definitely getting into the space of how can we produce in a different way. And many brands are on that journey and I don't think it's right to aim for perfection, but it's about progress and they've done lots of they're very honest. Like they've done a collaboration with Allbirds of how will they. Make their shoes, the lowest impact possible. And they've done a couple of videos of, of that journey. But I think now, you know, not working there, I can always be provocative as well. Okay. That's one shoe. Okay. Like is the whole business getting behind this? Right. So it's about, okay. Do the innovation, do the R and D but is this really part of everyone's job description and how fast can they shift their whole business model to these better models? In the next couple of years, because we don't really have much.

Cory Connors: 8:06

That's it, there, there needs to be a sense of urgency. And these larger companies, I think, are jumping on board. If they're not already with the idea of sustainability and environmentally consciousness if you will. So that's exciting to see but like you said, always could be faster. Always could be better. Always could be less packaging or better packaging. So. So you were at the university of Cambridge, where were you a professor there?

Connor Hill: 8:31

Definitely not a professor, so, so I actually did one of their, so they've got a high impact leadership course. And so I did this last year sometime. And the reason I did that is because I'd always worked in sustainability. And I wanted to understand, to upskill myself on, you know, what is the business leadership structure today and how can I help make sustainable business case more digestible to the executives? So it's not just someone coming in their room, like as an activist, I can actually start to partner with them and understand them. So I did that course last year high impact leadership. And I recommend it to other people who have come from very pure sustainability background and looking for that more business element. But then since around Easter time, this year I've been a program leader, the Cambridge university course, which is focused on circular economy strategies and sustainability strategies which has been amazing because so I'm definitely not the most academic person. That's why I said I'm not perfect. They were looking for people who'd been working in the industry for 10 plus years who could actually, you know, take the academic side of, start to the economy and sustainability and give real life examples of how it worked. How does the internal change management at work best? What were some learnings there supported them there for a couple months and they take on a new group probably every two months or so. So I think there's another run that will start end of August. Till October. And again, that's around a six to eight week program and people from executive level down to whatever other levels, people who are genuinely actually just really passionate about how can they help their business pivot to a better way. Yeah. So that's how I worked with Cambridge just now. And yeah, lots of inspiring people.

Cory Connors: 10:15

Well, that sounds fascinating. I might have to join that class one of these days. I would love that. So this is the question I'm asking every guest and I'd love to know your opinion. Can packaging be sustainable?

Connor Hill: 10:26

It depends what your definition of sustainable is. Yeah. So I am. Many brands are saying they're sustainable right now. And I, I, if I'm, so I'm a very much an optimist. Maybe I start from there. So I, I love progress. I love honesty. I love people giving it a goal rather than not even trying, or even some people are trying, but they don't say anything because they're too scared about the backlash. And so I'm always about like, communicate what you're doing, whether it be a loss or. And, and reward companies for doing something. Where I, I guess I get a little bit stuck is when brands say this product is sustainable. And they might have, you know, if we think about maybe a ski jacket, for example, you know, ski jacket probably has about 14 different materials in it, as well as the zips and everything else that goes on top of that, as well as the dying processes, the water perfect processes. So what you might see, and you can connect this to a sofa, you could connect this to a car. Many things. So some brands will say, this is a sustainable car. This is a sustainable ski jacket. This is a sustainable sofa. Well, what they've done when you go into the details, as that may be changed, one of the materials, and it might not even be the main material in terms of weight of that product, that they've changed to something that is less bad. So it doesn't even mean that that material is sustainable. It might just be coming from recycled sources. So I think that's where I struggle. And also, I think consumers are just hugely Kunz confused that brands are saying misses a sustainable product, but when they look at it, they see it's got recycled and they think that's good. But so I think it's a bit of a messy space. Can packaging be sustainable? I think it can definitely be lower impact than conventional methods. And there's like, obviously a huge scope there. Huge gray space. So, yeah, for me, the best thing is no packaging, but a lot of the time it's, that's just not possible. I think it was yourself. That was actually saying Corey when we spoke on clubhouses, you know, certain retailers are looking at doing online deliveries without any packaging. You just open your door and they hand it to you. So I think that's amazing. So how can the couriers like the people delivering those products really start to think about just putting these things in plastic tubs and they put something else in and they fill it in and it just gets reused many, many times. So, yeah. It can be sustainable when it doesn't exist.

Cory Connors: 12:55

That's the most sustainable, right? Yeah. Right. But

Connor Hill: 12:57

I think, you know, if I go down to the supermarket today, I can buy a lot of things with unsustainable packaging, which is a mix of plastic paper. It's glued together. It's far too many layers of it. It's so I think, yeah, there's different ways. You can look at packaging to make it in the direction of more sustainable, but to have truly sustainable packaging is different. And I think if we're honest with ourselves, What brands should be saying, it's not perfect, but it's from a sustainable forest or a forest that will be replanted now. And even just replanting a forest is one thing, but how are they actually increasing the biodiversity in that space? Are they replanting native species? What is the forest treatment? So, but that that's been getting a bit geeky and the consumer doesn't need to know all of that. It's just, is the packaging better or worse than other packaging? And yeah, if we can help consumers with that really,

Cory Connors: 13:53

we support it geeky on this show. We're we're all about it. I am fully a packaging nerd and I You know, spent 24, 24 years in this industry. So this is, this is my passion, and I'm here to spread the word on what we can do as a, as a, as a people, as a community, as a nation, as a world to improve sustainability So, thank you. Awesome. So that leads right into this you know, as a consultant you're, you're meeting with companies, what, give us a few of the kinds of things that you focus on, right? When you meet with a new company, like what would be advice for somebody either just start now or trying to pivot towards sustainability?

Connor Hill: 14:34

Sure thing. So if a company hasn't started on sustainability, Then first degree, first of all, I'd be trying to understand like who their business SES, how do they operate? Who's their supply chain? What materials, what volumes what's their relationship to their consumer. So is it direct? Is it through a wholesaler through that? And you get a pretty good understanding of the landscape. And if they're using certain materials and their notes recycled, or from a certified source, then that might be a starting point because a lot of companies that make a physical product, the biggest impact of their business is in the creation of those materials. And then the creation of those materials into our product. So if they want to really become our lower, their impacts on society and the globe and the environment, then you would start in that space. Now in parallel to that, a lot of brands also wants to engage their consumers and change behavior. So it might be in parallel to working on your supply chain, which might not be as people find it hard to connect to manufacturing because a lot of the time people have never been in a clothes factory. They've never been. Paper mill. So they can't quite grasp the size of these giant machines nor the energy they require. So sometimes it's in parallel. Okay. Let's find out your footprint, let's work out where your materiality risk is an opportunity, but in parallel to that, let's think about some inspiring ways to help your consumers. Understand their impact in a different way. So that example I'd eat ass. Okay. We could in the flagships activate people and say, if you have an old t-shirt, you haven't worn in five years, don't throw out, come to the store and we're going to put a new prince on it. We might even change the dye of it. So maybe it's quite, and it's going to be yellow, whatever else. We're actually got an eco di partner, and we're going to die that red dye that for you. So it's like, how can you do these things to inspire you? Now is that going to change the overall footprint of the business? Very, very unlikely, but it might change the behavior of that consumer. And when they change the behavior once, then they're way more likely to do it in other places or for life, or even in their joke where they can have a much bigger impact. So I think it just depends on case by case who's the brand, what's their product. What's the maturity where in the world are they selling and then trying to create like a bit of a roadmap there and a strategy for them that can start with upskilling training as well. So we're just doing that with one brand just now we've just done five different workshops. And that's them now. They've all got this solid knowledge from like design, construction, development, marketing innovation. So now they have that foundation. Now we can go to the next stage of like, planning that strategy of, okay, now you understand the impacts. Now, you know, the stuff that gets you excited, let's create a strategy and products. The consumer will also find that while also reducing your impact. Yeah, so that's the space that we work in and yeah, it's good. Fun.

Cory Connors: 17:27

Everybody wins in that space. I think as far as I can tell. Yeah, absolutely. Especially the planet, which we're focused on

Connor Hill: 17:35

here. Yeah. And like equally this, I mean, many companies now have sustainability individuals working for them, but until everyone in the company feels empowered that they can also champion sustainability in their specific role, whether it be procurement or legal or accountancy, then it's going to be really hard to make a difference. So you need to create that. Internal buzz and culture that they feel empowered to make decisions in their role because they've gone through some training because they see it aligned to the company's mission and vision and purpose. Yeah,

Cory Connors: 18:06

so powerful. That's so true in, in, in business, we need to let everyone know what's going on and what our goals are and that every single person is a part of it. And I, I couldn't agree with that more well said. So can you give us an example of a company that you see using circular packaging that we could kind of look up to, or, or, or.

Connor Hill: 18:32

So I think one of the best examples of more sustainable packaging or getting in the direction of circular is the stores where you bring your own packaging and you just put the product directly in there. So you're reusing packaging that already exists rather than creates a new packaging. And it's. Yeah, exactly. So reducing the dependency on Virgin oil to make those plastics actually reducing your dependency on recycled plastics as well, because you're using something exists. Right. And I think they're going like next step as well. It might take a while travel to these stores cause there's maybe not so many of them in your community, but here in London, you even have, you have these milk floats, which would traditionally deliver your milk in the mall. But now they actually go around communities on the weekends and you just go out your front door and you take your plastic container and you just have all these little dispensers on these milk floats. So it's just becoming more and more convenient for people to do that. That you don't need all this packaging because the journey from your front doorsteps, your kitchen is so short. And even if you do use packaging, you can give it back to them. They use packaging afterwards, and then they can repurpose it.

Cory Connors: 19:44

Really. I've never heard of that. So it's like a truck with dispensers on it.

Connor Hill: 19:48

Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, I mean, I can see it working in urban communities in America or going round. You've got a little bit longer driveways than the ones in London, so I can still work nicely for sure.

Cory Connors: 20:04

Well, that's that's awesome. I've never heard of that. So thank you. Yeah, appreciate it, Connor. Well, what's the best way for us to get ahold of you, sir.

Connor Hill: 20:12

So LinkedIn is probably where I'm most active and posting about circular economy. I'm also, so if you look up Connor Hill hopefully it'll be one of the ones near the top ad in circular economy, and I'm sure it will get higher up there. Apart from that, then also on Instagram. So ConnorHillCo so. Posting a little bit more around inspiration of different brands, events I'm speaking at. And each Tuesday, so probably maybe two or three Tuesdays a month. I host circular week. And that's on clubhouse. And within that, it's by the name inspire circular. I always bring in a guest from a different part of the circular , the economy. So Cory was actually one of our guests a couple of weeks ago, focusing on what does packaging look like from a circularity points of view? Other times we've spoken to rental companies who are renting out fashion rather than buying fashion. It's about inspiring people around well, the solutions, and then creating that community. And then beyond that, then. That would be actually

Cory Connors: 21:10

that's awesome. Thank you so much, sir. I'd like to thank our sponsor Landsberg, ORORA for their support. And thank you again, Connor hill. We appreciate you and what you're doing in this community of sustainability and man, you're making a huge impact and it's noticed.

Connor Hill: 21:26

Thank you, sir. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me and let's keep collaborating for sure.

Cory Connors: 21:31

Thank you, sir.