Danone with Marcu Alexander / What's the future of sustainable packaging?

https://www.danonenorthamerica.com/

Marcu Alexander is an amazing person and a brilliant packaging professional! It was my honor to speak with her and learn about the many innovations that she is working on with her team. 

What is the future of sustainable yogurt packaging? 
Can reusable packaging work for dairy products? 

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Transcript

Cory Connors: 0:15

Welcome to Sustainable Packaging with Corey Connors. Today's guest is my friend Marku Alexander. She is the Packaging Sustainability Manager at Danone. How are you Marku?

Marcu Alexander: 0:26

I'm doing well. Corey,

Cory Connors: 0:27

how are you? I'm doing great. It was so awesome to meet you at Circularity23. put on by green biz, our mutual friend Adam peak introduced us or insisted that we meet. And, I'm thankful that he did that, but let's talk about you. Tell us about your background a little bit. How'd you get into packaging?

Marcu Alexander: 0:47

Well, not the typical route that most people take. I am not a packaging engineer by trade. I actually went to college to, become a psychologist, but I always say that. getting a bachelor's degree in psychology is applicable literally anywhere.

Cory Connors: 1:02

especially raising kids, right?

Marcu Alexander: 1:05

But I kind of fell into packaging. I had been working in customer service management and inside sales and I started working for a packaging company in Seattle, about 20 years ago. And that's really where I found my love of. Packaging specifically sustainable packaging. So where I met my husband, we met on the job and then, about 10 years ago, we moved from Seattle to Boise to raise our girls near family. And that's where I landed a job as, packaging sustainability. Well, really it wasn't so sustainable at the time, definitely much more so now, but doing packaging development for happy family organics, which is an organic baby food company, who is owned by Danone. So I spent my first eight years at within Danone, specifically at Happy Family, really focused on all of the packaging development for the full company, but then really became passionate about sustainability. And then a role opened up within Danone, North American, the larger enterprise. So I got to switch gears and do sustainability full time, which I love, but I still get very close ties to all my friends at Happy Family. So that's. I appreciate that.

Cory Connors: 2:19

that's a good story. Usually, something like that will come about and you'll have to leave because somebody will get consolidated. But it sounds like you're able to stay within the family of companies. And, that's a, that's really

Marcu Alexander: 2:32

cool. When I started Happy Family in 2013, they had just been acquired by Danone. So for the first few years I was with the company, we were still very much operating as our own, small little, well, growing baby food company. but then as years went on, it was becoming more and more integrated within Danone. a lot more resources and opportunities within the company. So it was really a great transition for me. I still absolutely love happy family always will. And the fact that I still get to work with them among all the other brands, it's pretty ideal.

Cory Connors: 3:03

That's excellent. And I know your line of food is very difficult to package sustainably. So I'm excited to hear about that. but what is your focus on a day to day basis? you're talking about possible new materials. tell us

Marcu Alexander: 3:20

more. All of the above. So you really, yeah, my focus on at within Danone, and there's really just two of us focused on packaging sustainability, myself and Sam Harrington, who's the director of packaging sustainability, and we're really strongly focused on meeting all well, building out and meeting all of Danone's packaging circularity goals. And then we have this very in depth decarbonization roadmap that we're working towards. We're part of the SBTI plan. commitments. So, it's looking at all of the things. What's the right format? What's the right material? can we switch to something reusable or can we switch to something that's bio based? So it's really looking at all the different options because we have so many different types of food products. Danone has brands like Silk and Stoke and So Delicious and so a lot of, dairy yogurt products and then a lot of, plant based milk products. So it's It really runs the gambit, so we really need solutions for each different type of product.

Cory Connors: 4:19

And kids brands that are packaged differently, and, we were talking about Dannon earlier. My kids love those yogurts and the different products that you make, so keep up the good work, for sure. we appreciate it. Can you tell us what SBTI stands for? I like to define acronyms, in acronyms. Yeah, so it's

Marcu Alexander: 4:37

Science Based Targets Initiative. So Danone, along with I think there's 4, 000 companies now that have been, signed on to meet these really challenging decarbonization goals to meet the 1. 5 Celsius, carbon reduction. So it's focused on. All aspects of our business, agricultural, raw pack, all of the different aspects. But, of course, my focus is on packaging and sustainability side. And what can we do to reduce our carbon footprint, by 2030 and then beyond

Cory Connors: 5:12

there's. And there's been some amazing innovations in those, different things, including all the way back to how do we raise the cattle to, or how do we feed the cattle that where we get the milk from? I read a study the other day about if you feed them this, it will reduce their car, their methane emissions by this much. And it's incredible. It's

Marcu Alexander: 5:33

exciting. Really interesting. Innovations out there on how to capture methane from cows. You should do a little Google search, it's pretty

Cory Connors: 5:41

fun. I can see some cartoons there. That sounds good. I'm sure there's memes out there. Tell me about, how you enjoyed the experience at Circularity23.

Marcu Alexander: 5:52

I thought it was really awesome this year. I've been going since, I think, 2018. And what I really loved this year, well, one, one, it's in Seattle, which, So the fact that it was in Seattle, which is, I used to live there for many years. So being back in the Pacific Northwest is always a pleasure and Seattle is a great city to host an event like that. But what I really loved so much is that it's, it felt really authentic and real. There was a lot of real talk, which I appreciate all of the panels. it didn't feel like canned responses. I felt like, there was a really good group, mixed group of individuals from across the value chain, specifically talking about what we can do to work together to improve circularity overall. I also love that it's not just packaging. It's not just food. It's a lot of different industries and there's a lot to be learned from. different business, different businesses from what we do. And so I just thought it was just such a real authentic discussion that was happening. And that was, I mean, not only within the, the panels and the different sessions, but the conversations that would just organically happen at lunch or during a break. So I felt re energized, which I don't always feel after going to a conference and I go to a lot of conferences each year. That's

Cory Connors: 7:17

a great point. Sometimes you come back and you're drained because it's the same old. but you're exactly right. And you were on a panel, right? You were a speaker? I was, yeah. And, it's so... Refreshing, I think is the right word. Like you said to feel like people are going back to real talk and saying, okay,

Marcu Alexander: 7:38

yeah, even prepping for that. We didn't prep. We didn't have. Okay, we're going to ask this question. And that it was all very, kind of on the fly, but, really in depth conversation. It was more conversational and it allowed for the audience to become more involved. And so there was really great conversation back and forth, which I think. Excellent. a lot more valuable to a situation like that. You don't get those large group conversations very often, especially with people from all different sectors. So it opened up a lot of discussions that wouldn't have happened if it was. So, okay, we have this much time for this question. This much time, it was really, it was, I feel like they're more moving to that now. And I think, Okay. As everyone's working toward the same goal. There's not this blame game that I used to see in the past. It's this real, like, how do we collaborate together and work toward this goal? That's really hard. And we all have a full play.

Cory Connors: 8:34

Right. That's exactly it. it's really hard. And I think people are acknowledging that finally saying, listen, we, we thought this would be a little easier, or we thought this would be a little less complicated or we didn't realize how much time it would take for the municipalities to catch up for recycling. I think until there's more like consistency

Marcu Alexander: 8:54

or harmonization in. in recycling or in, in really in any aspect of sustainability, it's going to remain very difficult because it's kind of piecemealing or, what I can do where I live is different than what you can do. So try to explain that to a consumer who doesn't live and breathe this every single day. It's super hard.

Cory Connors: 9:12

that's one of the key themes I think that I heard was. Pre competition and getting together with other brands that are similar to yours before you launch something new and saying, Hey, we're thinking about doing this. Do you think that it would work for you? do you think that we could team up with, and the whole group there and say, let's move to this kind of packaging so that it's recyclable or we know that the Murph's will can use this. Did you hear that? Same thing? Yeah,

Marcu Alexander: 9:47

absolutely. And it's having those conversations with. the end markets and the Murphs and, at the design phase, at the front end is what we're developing that we think is right based on APR guidelines and all that is what we're doing, the actual right decision, because we don't want to spend all this time and resources doing what we think is right, and then it still needing to be fixed. That's the last thing anyone wants. and 1 of the things I do within my role, I spent a lot of my time representing Danone and external organizations focused around packaging sustainability. So, US plastics pack the recycling partnership S PC, that sort of thing. And what I love so much about participating in those is that. I'm talking to the suppliers and, the Murph, the different Murph operators and the city, it's literally everyone in the value chain, and we all have a seat at the table and we're having these valuable discussions that then I can take back to my organization and be like, okay, here's the deal, but also it's making connections with people that I wouldn't. Already, I wouldn't have had another opportunity to. To, let me, I can't answer this. Let me just bug Steve Alexander at APR and see what he has to say. like I have made these, I forged these relationships with people in the industry. So if we have a really, difficult question or situation, I know how to find the answer. I know someone who can lead me to someone who can, help us out. So really it's collaboration and making, building those relationships. Cause again, we all are working toward the same end goal. And so, I think those external, I'm always telling companies, if you're not a part of these groups join, it's how you have a voice in, a stake in the game. And it really, your voice does get heard.

Cory Connors: 11:33

Yes, very true. The Sustainable Packaging Coalition, the U. S. Plastics Pact, I moderated the panel for the U. S. Plastics Pact at the Circularity 23. You did a great job. Oh, thank you so much. It was so fun. And like you said, we didn't prepare a lot in advance, other than a brief presentation from each panel. Winner, there were four winners to this year's awards for sustainable innovations. And I was amazed how the crowd reacted and, immediately had questions and wanted to be involved. And then the feedback I'm getting from my customers and, and our company's customers at Orora is amazing. They're so excited about these sustainable alternatives to these old materials.

Marcu Alexander: 12:20

So yeah, I was so, impressed by the. The different companies that one and a lot of them aren't necessarily specifically applicable to what you know what my company does, but it gets my it gets me thinking about. Well, could this could something like this work in this regard? it just it's so refreshing to see these new innovations and it does. It gets people. Thinking in a new way

Cory Connors: 12:43

and we have to, that's how we innovate, right? We talk to each other and we spit ball ideas and we say, Hey, have you thought of this? And like you said, reach out to your friends in these organizations or go to these events. These events used to be, a lot more, social and less, information. And now they're becoming more exciting information and social. so it's fun to have both. Agreed. You

Marcu Alexander: 13:09

got to have all work and no play. You can't

Cory Connors: 13:12

have that. Well, and like you said, some of the best conversations were the ones over, over coffee at 730 or over a cocktail at six and, really making big changes in big ways. But I'd love to talk about maybe an example of a project you've done it at Danone that was very successful sustainability, or maybe a project that you're working on that you're excited about.

Marcu Alexander: 13:40

Oh gosh, there's so many exciting projects. Well, one thing I'm really excited about is finally getting some PCR into packaging. the majority of our products within Danone North America, the beverage side are an HDPE. And if you look out there, there's not a lot of food products yet in recycled HDPE. And so, we've been working really hard with our procurement team and, the PACR& I team and our suppliers. And so we're getting ready to, implement PCR into a couple of our brands. And, it's just exciting to see what that does in terms of, being better for the planet, obviously, but what it does to reducing your carbon footprint. I mean, it's a win win. it's always tricky when it comes to supply for, food grade PCR, and making sure that there's the. As we kept hearing it circularly 23 long term contracts, but making sure that there's, ample supply to, fulfill your volume requirements. So that's something I'm really excited about and, looking forward to seeing that on shelf. Another thing that we, which I was on the panel for at Circulary 23 is that our company is 1 of the 1st. Companies to pilot the new platform within the recycling partnership called recycle check. So it's a QR code that will be on. our horizon half gallon cartons where you can scan and it gives you real time data based on the recycling partnerships national database. So it'll tell you where you're standing in that moment when you scan the QR code. If that specific carton is recyclable in your community. And so when you scan it where you live in Oregon versus where I am in Boise, it's going to say two different things because we cannot recycle cartons in Boise, even though it has that widely recyclable how to recycle label. So it's just adding that much more, accuracy and I think will help consumers feel more confident if that they're making the right decision when they can scan that and know, okay, yes, I for sure can recycle that here or no, I need to put this in the trash.

Cory Connors: 15:45

That's an incredible step and so critical to the future of a sustainable, economy and circular economy for packaging materials, especially when you're trying to use PCR and for those listening, that's post consumer recycled material and because we need, like you said, a supply chain and you have to create the waste almost to use the waste, but. Exactly. that's exciting to know that, consumers will be able to get real live data like that.

Marcu Alexander: 16:17

When I feel bad for consumers, because it is super confusing, and I was sitting on the panel. I was talking, with this group of this audience. Hardly anyone in that room was from Seattle. What do you know what to do with, a packaging component that you need to dispose of when you're somewhere where you don't live, it's hard enough to remember the rules where you do live. So, this, QR code, like this recycle check is going to make it. Very simple to scan and know exactly what to do. And it really ties well with how to recycle, which we also utilize in providing, transparent, accurate information to a consumer because they'd want to do the right thing. that's wish cycling. It's because people are wanting to do the right thing. It just may not be going where it's supposed to be.

Cory Connors: 17:02

And exactly that actually is worse. It causes more problems when people, try to recycle or wish cycle something that it just frankly, isn't recyclable in that area. so you're better off saving the Murph the time, the material recycling facility, the time of having to sort that and then throw it away. Bleh. Better to just throw it away,

Marcu Alexander: 17:26

which I know is hard, but you know,

Cory Connors: 17:28

it's hard, especially when it's got to recycle symbols on it.

Marcu Alexander: 17:33

Well, that's the whole thing. Yeah, but it's, then it can empower a consumer to say, okay, why isn't my municipality? Why isn't, why doesn't my town allow these to go in the bin and. they can have this local, a local approach to even improving recyclability, then also overall, improving, increasing recycling, but also reducing that contamination.

Cory Connors: 17:57

Yeah. Yes. It's all the steps have to work together in, in unison. That's an excellent point. Well, I have to ask what's your favorite Danone product? Do you have one? Oh,

Marcu Alexander: 18:10

bad. Admit. I know there's, there are a lot of products that I love, but my absolute favorite is definitely stoke cold brew. Love it. So good.

Cory Connors: 18:19

I, I have to agree with you. Cold brew is delicious and really, I can drink black coffee all day long and just enjoy it. But, do they have different flavors? tell

Marcu Alexander: 18:29

us about it. There's different, there's like the bold and then there's the lighter and then, but I'm all about the bold. No flavor, no sweetener, little half and half. It's in to have one when we get off this call. It smells really good. I need the afternoon to pick me up, but I'm telling you, I've tried other brands. And I'm not even being biased. It's just, I feel like it's the best one. Hey,

Cory Connors: 18:52

that's a good feeling to work for the company that makes the best, or your favorite of something. That's really cool.

Marcu Alexander: 18:57

And I will say when I was working, when I first started working at Happy Family, I had little kids and so they loved everything and they talked, they called it mom's going to snack work, snacks, stuff home from snack work. So, but we do, we have a lot of different, products that my Family loves. In fact, we were in McCaul over the weekend. It's a little Lake town here, in Idaho. And I kept joking because it was all these different families who brought all the different food to share. And I kept saying, you guys, are you guys trying to like butter me up? Cause they had all these silk and so delicious and white coats and all these Danone brands. I was like, did you guys bring all this on purpose to like butter me up or something? Oh, we didn't even know that was one of the brands you guys own. I was like, there's a lot, I know.

Cory Connors: 19:43

I love that. Well, it's nice to have that support from friends and family. Isn't it? Yes. Well, I wanted to discuss the possibility of using reusable packaging for the kinds of products that you provide and would love to know your thoughts on the future of that. Well,

Marcu Alexander: 20:05

I'm a big fan. I'm going to show this to you. Do you see this? This is an old clay Dannon yogurt pot from way back in the day. and that's what all the yogurt used to come in. So obviously very reusable. So Sam, Harrington and I both have one of these. He got it for me. We have it on our desk as inspiration of reusable packaging. So definitely, would love to see more reusable packaging out there. I think it's so smart. It makes so much sense. I think it's really tricky when it comes to how do we broaden this and make it scalable. I think certain products are, Certain products are easier to do in a usable format, but I think there's so much opportunity and I would love to see it happen. it's just whoever figures out the, well, not the whole thing needs to be collaboration, but you know, the reverse logistics and the cleaning and, getting consumers engaged with. with returning it back to the store. but I do see a huge opportunity and I really hope we can get it to be at a point where it's scalable. We've had, some really positive results from pilots that have been done in Europe with some of our Danone products. there's baby food and yogurt. but I'd love to see it scale more and have the opportunity to do it in the U. S. We've, we're looking at all options. A lot of our products are, in the refrigerator set and that's not well established for reusable packaging yet. Right. To see that happen. Yeah, I'm a big fan.

Cory Connors: 21:40

That's exciting to hear. I'm going to keep in touch with you about, as we learn about these new materials that are, and these new, systems that make it so you can reuse the packaging materials.

Marcu Alexander: 21:52

Yeah. Where I see it being so successful and working really well. And I want to see more of it is that concert venues or game, places where you, it's easier to capture the material in there, it's easier to make that infrastructure work for cleaning and, Refilling and all of that. I would love to see that scale more, but I, it makes so much sense. I've been to so many concerts where I'm just, my heart palpitates for the amount of plastic cups I see in the trash can. And I'm like, no, Mark, who you're supposed to be having fun. So I love to see it happen in venues like that or in sporting events. I think that is a great place to really get people to understand what it is, get comfortable with it and then start to see it. Move out of, closed, closed arenas.

Cory Connors: 22:34

I agree. the, r cup, a company that, that sponsored or provided cups for, circularity 23 was, right on. And exactly like you said, we've got these people in a closed area. They're going to have a couple of beers or a couple of drinks and, you might as well recover those cups, to be used at the next event. Oh, very good point.

Marcu Alexander: 22:57

Thank It makes so much sense. Yeah. It's like, let's keep that, let's get that

Cory Connors: 23:02

everywhere. Yes. Well, I think you're right. and stay tuned for more of that, people listening. how do people get in touch with you, Marco?

Marcu Alexander: 23:11

Well, I'm definitely on LinkedIn. You can find me there. it's probably, you could email me. Yeah. but yeah, you can come to Boise and, flag me down , but I'd say yeah, probably LinkedIn's the easiest way to get ahold of me.

Cory Connors: 23:25

Right on. Well, thank you so much for this, your time and your wisdom and your friendship. I appreciate it so much and, really looking forward to posting this episode. if you're listening, make sure you've subscribed so you don't miss the next episode. And, thank you Aurora Packaging Solutions for sponsoring this podcast. Stay tuned for more.