Sustainable Packaging
Industry Experts discuss all the new materials and ways that packaging can be more sustainable and how we can do our parts to help recycle and reuse. Sustainable Packaging is and will continue to affect us all in our daily lives. We have lots of fun and get down to the real data of what's working to help our planet!
Sustainable Packaging
Stanley Mugs and Adhesives with Brent Ostrowski and Justine Hanlon
https://www.linkedin.com/in/brentostrowski/
https://www.stanley1913.com/products/adventure-quencher-travel-tumbler-40-oz
https://www.linkedin.com/in/justinehanlon/
How did the major success of the Stanley Quencher help improve the sustainability of their packaging?
Why are reusable drink containers so sustainable?
How are adhesives helping packaging be more sustainable?
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/packaging-today-show/id1656906367
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Packaging Today Podcast
https://open.spotify.com/show/6dksVwqEFVDWdggd27fyFF?si=e924995740f94e19
https://www.linkedin.com/in/cory-connors/
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Welcome to Sustainable Packaging with Cory Connors. Today's guests, I have two of them are gonna introduce themselves and they are related. So this will be a really interesting show, a family of packaging people. I'm excited to, get to know both of them. let's start with you, Justine Hanlon. Can you tell us about yourself? Yeah.
Justine Hanlon:Hi, I'm Justine Hanlon. I work at HP Fuller, which is actually an adhesive company. so I've been working at HP Fuller for 13 years. I started at HB Fuller as a formulation chemist in the r d lab. Wow. and yeah, so worked there and then, started doing some work in tech service and then eventually moved into marketing and then took on some greater responsibilities in marketing. before I recently left, my most recent job in marketing, which was, global strategic marketing, and now I am actually in a commercial role. So I have a, north America commercial role in tape
Cory Connors:and label. Wow. That's some big titles there. I'm impressed. Well done. And Mr. Brent Ostrowski, we met at the, sustainable Packaging Coalition event. And, I'm excited to, learn more about you, but if you don't mind, introduce yourself and tell us where you work.
Brent Ostrowski:I'm, Brenna STRs. I'm the Director of Packaging Design at Stanley, which is not the tool company, but the beverage and food storage company. Stanley has grown in popularity in the past two or three years with the Quencher. we call it the Cher, because it is our flagship product and highly sought after. and with that growth, Stanley started to build capabilities and they hired me. my background, I started in packaging in 1997 with, target, as a packaging production artist. So I was not a, I'm not a packaging engineer. I didn't have formal education. All my, training and experiences been on the job. but worked my way up at Target's, became a quality assurance manager for print. built a global team to monitor, suppliers around the world that were producing goods for target brands. did that until 2005 and then, was at Best Buy to help them with their private. Label. and did that for eight years. So worked on programs such as Insignia, rocket Fish. I think those are the two brands that are left, but the others were in it. And, Dex. and then I was in the wilderness for a couple years, did my own consulting, workforce, Bioplastic startup in Vancouver, BC for six months, was a, manager at a food company, packaged food company, and then ended up back at Best Buy, in procurement of packaging for e-commerce packaging. and then supply chain. And then I was at a packaging company called Billiard. Yeah. here in Portland. and then while I was there, I got recruited by Stanley, based in Seattle to, build up their packaging capability. So,
Cory Connors:Amazing. And you're right, the Stanley Cher has, or Cher as you call it, has, it's a global phenomenon. And, you see so many people walking around with him all day long and social media posts and, how have, how Well, let's go. We'll go back to Justine, but I'm interested to learn how you've handled that massive, new demand for the product. And, so we'll get to that soon here. Justine, can you tell us a little bit, more about your role there? what's a day look like for you? Are you spending it, in, going to events or are you, what's a, what's it like for you? Yeah. Corey, I
Justine Hanlon:spend a little bit of time going to events. I'd say, these days it's about 25% of my time is spent going to events and then servicing customers. most recently I was at, the pressure sensitive team. Pressure sensitive tape council. next week I'm actually going to a p r, cessation, plastic recyclers. So, decided to be there. I'm on a couple of working groups, so, there's a couple of different groups, working groups I'm on, for different, trade organizations. So yeah, I go to a fair
Brent Ostrowski:amount of events.
Cory Connors:I'm amazed at how many shows there are and, it's, it seems like there's a new one every month, like a new one that comes up and people are constantly asking me, are you going to this specific event? And I'll, I don't even know about that one. So how do we keep, keep up with all of 'em? But most of them are very valuable, so it's important for, People in the packaging world to identify their niche and learn about it. So well done. Excellent. Well, let's go back to you, Brent. I'd love to know how, Stanley handled that massive increase in volume and what kind of a sustainable packaging challenge that was.
Brent Ostrowski:So, I've been with Stanley, since February, so relatively new. So there was, quite a bit of work before I came On eliminating plastic from packaging. So we're, I would say 99% plastic free. Wow. and the packaging. So everything's fiber. Paper based. so they did a really good job with that. Now it's, figuring out how we can be more sustainable and, looking at, recycled content and finding that balance and that ratio, for the various packaging types. Looking at the full life lifecycle analysis, sustainability just isn't. Based on the material, from which we use, it's, how do we make that material? Where do those raw materials come from to make that package? How is it transported? what the type of energy, is being used to, create that packaging? So, It's, getting a better understanding of how we can be more sustainable, how we can be more impactful. so right now it's pretty basic. Like I said, their idea of sustainability is, right now the hot topic is how much recycled content and I'm trying to tap the brakes on it, like, let's not get too, Place where we're starting to greenwash and making all kinds of fabulous claims about, right. The recycled content, especially, coming outta China, the, I'm leery of some of the certifications and where are this materials actually coming from? and then there's just the question of, in the most recent conference you and I were at with pc, this. Sustainable Packaging Coalition, that, that, it's not just. the material, I mean, it's, there's a lot of different aspects right to it. and not all materials are equal. Something that you would think is sustainable to make it is not necessarily sustainable. So, for example, fiber-based packaging, uses, creates a lot more CO2 emissions than plastic. And so, there's trade offs and you gotta understand the bigger picture. In order to meet whatever goals you are trying to attain.
Cory Connors:Yeah. Well said. We need to look at the whole picture and look at the lifecycle analysis for the whole supply chain. I like how you even focused on where does the energy come from for this factory that we're producing this item. Even maybe your cups and mugs or whatever you, however you refer to them as containers for drinks. though we need to look at, is it a coal fired plant? Is it, solar? is it, electric? It's so important to think about the big picture here. And to not just make these knee jerk reactions of higher pcr r that's the answer. Or, eliminate plastic. That's the answer. Well, what if we eliminate plastic and it, and actually, increases our carbon footprint? Oh, I don't care. We gotta, so a lot of, a lot of the time I think we spend as packaging professionals is explaining to people. That they need to slow down, step back and look at the big picture. Is that kind of how both of you feel?
Justine Hanlon:Yeah. just adding onto what Brent was saying, what you were saying, Corey, I agree with the lifecycle analysis. I think, we're still at the really beginning stages in terms of having comprehensive lifecycle analysis. I'd say we're, at least we said as an adhesive company, it's really expensive and really hard to get to. but it's, I think where the industry needs to go overall. yeah, is just life cycle analysis and third party certification is to me where the industry needs to go, to be clear. it just doesn't seem like you can get there any other way personally.
Brent Ostrowski:And it's, and there's a lot of components to packaging, so what Justine does with the adhesive, you have the inks, you have the coatings, you have, a number of things that go into making a package. So, not one thing is more. Important than the other. that they all, if you're truly gonna make something sustainable, you have to look at all facets of it. And, and again, it comes with those trade-offs with performance, with appearance, with availability, cost, consistency. one thing I also wanted to say about, at the pc, which you know, I like to hear, is that, we need to focus on what we're good at and what our business goals are and what we're all about. And sustainability is a part of that. But it shouldn't be leading your business. it shouldn't be the driver. it should be a part of that journey, but not necessarily the destination itself. Yeah.
Cory Connors:Interesting. It's, we, I, I've struggled with this because I often think of sustainability first, and I think one of my friends likes to say there's nothing sustainable about going out of business. And, I think that's an important part. We need to remember that we're employing people. And we're supplying people with food and items that they're going to use in their personal lives and professional lives. I think about your Stanley, drink, containers. How many times are those going to replace single use plastic bottles? if you think about those numbers, it's incredible what you're doing and the lifecycle analysis is almost irrelevant for your product because the life of your product is going to save so many single use containers. From being purchased, you know what I mean? So I think about, if you think about stuff like that's gotta make you feel good as, working for a company that's doing, making products that are making people more sustainable in their day-to-day lives. Is that, yeah, that's, is that kinda how you feel?
Brent Ostrowski:Yeah. Yeah, that's true. and that's, what attracted me to Stanley is their commitment to sustainability. through that idea of reuse, that Big R is Yeah. We're, we've developed and, sell a product that will last a lifetime. And but we also are aware that people are collecting 'em. people get bored of 'em. And so, we're looking at. Programs to, get that material back. And, there are items that have a certain amount of recycled steel. so we're looking at ways to use recycled materials in our products, in the accessories of our products. So we're, starting up, mobility and storage. Line of, products that, support, your use of a quencher, whether you wanna strap it on or, put, something on there that you can hold your phone and keys and other items because, it's becoming a lifestyle brand. It's not just a product. and then from, the packaging point of view is, where we can. Reduce the amount of, because to be a hundred percent sustainable, we'd all be drinking outta streams with our hands. We wouldn't need, products and we wouldn't need packaging. And so there's no way. Fever. Fever, yeah. our goal is, To be less impactful on the environment. And like you said, you know what your friend said, and I've heard that and I've said it before, is, we're in a business and it is making impacts, where we can reduce those impacts and live our lives to the lifestyle and to the level of comfort and. enjoying life. we are, we're all consumers and we all buy things, and we all live in fabricated housing and drive cars and planes, and so we're making an impact. Where can we lessen that impact? that's what the mission is. That's it. I agree
Justine Hanlon:with Brent. Yeah. I mean, for us, when we talk about sustainability, the first R is always reduction. it has to be, reduction is always the first one in
Cory Connors:my mind. I agree, Justine. And I'd love to know your thoughts on maybe a trend in, in your business that is, has been more sustainable, that you're excited about?
Justine Hanlon:yeah. I mean specifically within, tapes and labels, it. Right there is reduction. it, we see it in the reduction of liners. so when you, you see a move from line, from liner material to liner list material, you see it in the reduction of adhesive coat weights. you see it in, in a move from pattern, like full coated material to, like, pattern applied material, which is a reduction. coat weight. So it's just a whole different way of getting there, right? So it's all different ways of reducing, your quantity of adhesive. So,
Cory Connors:it's a total mind shift, isn't it? That, that as packaging professionals, we used to think, let's provide as much packaging as we can and let's, that's our goal. How much can we, what's the throughput of our company? But now we're all looking at it differently, saying, how can we reduce packaging? And it's such a different change. How about you, Brent? what are your thoughts on some trends in packaging that you're excited about? Yeah,
Brent Ostrowski:it's, it just kind of going back to what you said, that there was a time when I started in this business that sustainability wasn't even on the radar at all. we design packaging and designed it in sometimes ways that. wasn't customer friendly, was excessive, ridiculous at times. but you know, a thought wasn't given to it. and part of it was the direction we were given by our marketing team or our buying team, or even the consumer research. but, something flipped. and the early, mid, yeah, like, I think it was 2007, 2008 when I was at Best Buy. And got notified by our legal team and our token sustainability team at that time, that, hey, we have some shareholders, wanting to know, what we're gonna do to reduce or eliminate PVC plastic, wow. From packaging. And I'm like, what? after we, we had that call with them, it made me realize, it opened my eyes and so it turned a new leaf for me. and so me and, a packaging engineer that was working for me at the time, really started to look at ways to eliminate plastic and, reduce, as Justine was saying, it's really about reducing, And just from the conference we attended, there was some consumer insights studies in it, and the number one thing people want to see is less packaging. reducing the amount of packaging. and so, that's the challenge because, it's sustainability is like that third leg, in packaging. The first is, protecting the product and making sure it gets to the consumer in a perfect condition. And the other is selling the product. so if it's on a retail shelf, that is, it's wearing its best suit for the interview. but then we have this e-commerce. Side of it too, where, we're back at that point where, we're trying to minimize as much as possible, but we have to protect that product. But there's also this phenomenon now, this unboxing experience and. You see people doing YouTube videos and these influencers. And so now the challenge is taking that retail experience and putting it on the inside of the box and giving that customer that experience when they open it up. So there's a lot of balls in the air, and sustainability is one of 'em, but you have these competing influences and asked, that you're trying to balance out with. Sustainability. Very true.
Cory Connors:Very true. And it's a major challenge for brands. what do they focus on? Do they focus on the unboxing experience or reducing packaging or both? and there's a fine line between both. I remember recently one of the big. Soda brands came out with a new line of flavors and they had these media kits that they were launching and, their, one of their heads of marketing showed off this beautiful media kit with all this polyethylene foam and inside and a couple plastic bottles, and people just roasted them this like, what are you doing? This is not sustainable. Yeah, that's pretty, but that's not what we're trying to do here anymore. So it felt like this immediate, shift back, away from that, to, Hey, your product's already in plastic. It doesn't need to be packaged in more plastic. did you guys see that or,
Brent Ostrowski:I have not seen that. Yeah,
Justine Hanlon:I saw that Corey and having just recently left the, marketing role. I'll tell you that there's, this kind of push pull with marketing where you have such brand awareness where you want. as a marketer, you want to keep your brand perfect and in a certain pathway, right? yeah, like sustainability is sort of pushing us towards this idea of we have to change, right? I mean, we're seeing this with some of the, big brands with changing some of the colors of their bottles. one of the things I'm seeing at APR is this idea of like, hey, moving away from colored bottles is a good idea for sustainability, but you know, there's branding involved with having these certain colored bottles, right?
Cory Connors:Yeah. I gotta interview the team from Coke that, that worked on the Sprite, bottles changeover, and it was exciting. They were so thrilled, to introduce this new. Concept of, Hey, we can have this item in clear and it will still sell. And it, as far as I know it has, and it's, people are interested. they've gotten a lot of positive feedback from
Brent Ostrowski:that move. Yeah. Their marketing
Justine Hanlon:was freaking out.
Cory Connors:That's, I think this, we're in this middle zone here where it's like, okay, which is the most important thing today? And how do we appease everyone? And I think the answer is you can't, you have to focus and really take a bold move and, that took some guts to make that change. And there's
Justine Hanlon:some concern that your consumer is going to reject whatever you do. Right. like you change, I mean, we've all seen it in the news, like you change one thing, yeah. Risk rejecting or alienating a consumer, right? Yeah. you tinker with your brand. So
Cory Connors:concern there. My friend Ika Johnson is a big, Sprite drinker, and she's like, the first time they brought her one in a clear bottle, she's like, that's, no, that's not what I ordered. I want a regular Sprite. She thought it was the light or the diet. Diet. I don't know what it's called. but they had to explain to her that no, this is new packaging and she's a packaging expert. So it was, I think it, it takes some adjusting, it takes some education too. Yeah. I, very fascinating. So a couple questions here. I've written down. I'd love for each of you to kind of answer them. So, Brent, we'll start with you. How can companies, improve their sustainability? what's a basic thing that they can do?
Brent Ostrowski:that's, I know that's a big question. I think a million things. Yeah. I think for me it's, keeping in mind, those. Things as packaging professionals that you know, we do, is that, we're designing and developing packaging to protect and sell the products. It's, to reduce the amount of, I, I'm a big proponent of fiber-based materials and getting out of plastic as much as we can. Cause it really comes down to. Recycling, we're not very good in this country. Recycling plastic. We're better at recycling paper-based. So, moving to a paper-based solution, a fiber-based solution, and then educating, customers and making it easier for them to recycle, those materials. And then the other is, maybe developing something that could be reused or repurposed as something else. so that package could become some kind of storage. Container or, it could be just reused, at a later date to, house the product. but it's starting to, I think working together to educate consumers on packaging and recycling and materials and, there's that idea of collaboration amongst competitors amongst industries. Yeah. because we have a big problem in this country is recycling and it's, I wouldn't even say it's broken. It never really worked. so, how can we contribute in making that better? Yeah.
Cory Connors:Great. Great points. Thank you so much, Justine. what do you think?
Justine Hanlon:yeah, I would say starting with having a clear and defined goal. I mean, so often I work with customers, from converters to CPGs, and their idea of sustainability is sustainable. Which is not really a goal. right. So having a numerical goal, like a very clear one with set dates, I'm a scientist at heart, so having like a clear goal with dates and metrics I think is always a good one. Yeah. and looking at your packaging to see if it's over-engineered, I would say is always a good one. so I worked for a long time in flexible packaging, so. For example, saying, does something actually need to be in a package that is designed to, like a granola bar package is often designed to last for years and years when often it on the shelf for less than a year. Yeah. So, moving towards, like Brent said, a fiber based type package makes sense. and then I think another case is moving towards like materials or modern materials. One of the things we've been discussing in one of the working groups for APR is, modern material labels so that when you get like a UPS bag, or Amazon mailer bag, like a label stock is similar enough so that you can just take. And that if we do develop flexible packaging,
Cory Connors:type, recycle the whole thing, right?
Brent Ostrowski:Yeah. Whole thing. So you don't
Justine Hanlon:have to remove the label, you can just take it. And then the, so you move away from a fiber based label and you move towards a, like a PPP type label, and you just cycle the whole thing.
Cory Connors:So I'd like that point a lot. That makes a lot of sense. Well, thank you both so much, Justine. What's the best way to get in touch with you? I'm on
Justine Hanlon:LinkedIn, so, that's the best way to pick it. A hold of me. So just
Brent Ostrowski:Dean Hamlin.
Cory Connors:All right, thank you. And you, Brent. how do people get in
Brent Ostrowski:touch? Yeah, same thing, through LinkedIn. That's been a great resource over the years. Not great necessarily finding a job, but, and networking. I think people put a lot of stock into. LinkedIn and helping'em find a job that it really comes down to. I know we're getting off topic, but it's networking. It's talking to people. Kinda like what we're doing now in, in our industry is, if you want something, talk to someone. Yeah.
Cory Connors:It's a great way to network, for sure. Yeah. Well said. Thank you both, and thank you Landsberg Orora for sponsoring this podcast. If you're listening, make sure you stay tuned for the next episode and be sure to subscribe. Thank you.
