Sustainable Packaging
Industry Experts discuss all the new materials and ways that packaging can be more sustainable and how we can do our parts to help recycle and reuse. Sustainable Packaging is and will continue to affect us all in our daily lives. We have lots of fun and get down to the real data of what's working to help our planet!
Sustainable Packaging
Sustainable Food ToGo packaging / Robert Beagan / Sabert
https://www.sabert.com/
rbeagan@sabert.com
What if togo food packaging could be industrially compostable?
What is Pulp Plus and Pulp Max and Pulp Ultra?
Is Molded fiber the future of sustainable packaging?
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Welcome to Sustainable Packaging with Cory Connors. Today's guest is Mr. Robert Beagan , the Director of Sustainable Growth Platforms at Sabert. How are you, Robert?
Robert Beagan:Doing very well,
Cory Connors:Corey. Thanks for having me. Happy to. And we, discussed before the show started that this has nothing to do with the office or, printers or any of that. We're talking about molded pulp trays and all kinds of things. But let's first talk about your background. I'm very excited to hear what, what got into this business.
Robert Beagan:Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. We joked earlier, we don't sell printers that go on fire. We don't sell hot dogs. Right. We're a food packaging manufacturer, so yeah, you know what, but, I got into packaging, I'd say accidentally, outta school. I took a, sales job for a, printing packaging company. We specialized in pressure sensitive labels, shrink sleeves and AC application equipment. And it really has opened my eyes to an industry that. I wasn't even aware of, going, coming outta school and whatnot. But I was intrigued by the, equipment they use, the technology, the processes, supply chain, create, the marketing creativity. And then of course in that, in the C P G world, you're selling to popular everyday brands, right? So you got to see a project, turn up on the shelf. So it really kind of, I got hooked. I got hooked early on in packaging. And, it's been a long ride since.
Cory Connors:That's a cool story. I think it's pretty common. People don't really generally go into packaging intentionally. I know. I sure didn't. And most of the people I've interviewed on here have a similar background and then they always stay cuz it's such a cool industry and there's so many ways to work in this unique industry. But let's talk about Sabert. Am I saying that right? Is that pronounced? You got it. Sabert.
Robert Beagan:Sabert. Yep. You got it. What, do you do there? Yeah, so I'm the director of Sustainable Growth platforms and, in that role, my job really is, and I've been in this role for about the last year or so what that really means is focusing on our product innovation and, pushing us towards our 20 fives financial and sustainability goals. Right. So what, does that mean? So, right. growth platforms, it's not. It's technology, but it's product. And it's process and it's sales and marketing. in this role we really leverage our, internal manufacturing capabilities. We focus on a few core product categories where we feel we can, replace plastic out there with the same fitness for use at massive scale at aggressive pricing, and really start to turn the industry, and give them another sustainable alternative out there in the market. Excellent.
Cory Connors:And you said you're in New Jersey. Do, you manufacture there?
Robert Beagan:Yeah we have a, plant in New Jersey. We have a plant, we have a couple plants, in North America. And we're also global too, right? So North America, I believe we have seven plants in Riverside, California. Chicago Kentucky, New Jersey, Richmond. We just opened up our molded fiber plant in Greenville, Texas a few years ago. Right. So we're a pretty big domestic footprint, but we're also global. Right. So, we're a manufacturer. We have fa factories in, Europe. We own our own pulp manufacturing facility in Asia. So we're, we're, it's great because we, get to take a look at global trends really imply them locally to the North American market. At least that's, my focus.
Cory Connors:That's amazing. And you, said molded fiber, which I thought was interesting. So we always call it molded pulp. Which I guess they're kind of similar. But are you using experimental fibers? Are you, is it mostly wood
Robert Beagan:fibers? Yeah, I know molded fiber pulp, is the, long term, if you will. Yeah. But no, nothing really experimental. we are a material science company. We do develop, a lot of formulations, whether it's across our paper or fiber or, our plastic. But for the molded fiber pulp, we use a combination of, a lot of folks use Beas and bamboo, right. As a accommodation. But we also started to introduce soft wood and hardwood into our. Into our blends a few years ago. And, that's kind of what we're gonna be focused on out of our Texas facility is a what was a software hardwood combination. Fiber blend.
Cory Connors:Excellent. And I've, got some questions here I think that I, just want to read cuz they're really put some time into 'em. Sure. So why is molded fiber so important to the future of sustainable packaging?
Robert Beagan:Yeah that's, a great question. Right. certainly plastic, let's talk about plastic for, a moment. Plastic has its place, in, in the industry from food preservation, hygiene, durability, it's done a tremendous, job there for us. But, but fiber's come a long way, right? And it's come a long way from developing. Whether it's on the fiber blind side on the chemical additive side, or even the processes. In a lot of cases now, fiber has, can replace plastic nearly, one for one. Right? So I, think that's a big checkbox for, molded fiber, to hit is. plastic is often the golden standard with, performance and diffuse. It's incredibly versatile, right? But fibers come a long way. And the substrate offers many environmental benefits that sometimes plastic has trouble, kind of, meeting, right. so fiber, for instance, we talked about some of our raw material sources. There're a source from a agriculture. It's, it's supports regenerative practices. So that's, good for the environment, right? We're not pulling fossil fuels out for our fiber. We also, here at Saber we're, key on certification, right? All of our products come out with certification and certified compostable. So what that means is these products can be accepted into the organics waste stream, and under the right condition and practices that can degrade in the environment. We go one step further too, because I think molded fiber and certainly on the certified compostable side, when you combine that in a food service operation, there's a lot of studies out there that the compostable packaging can also help divert food waste from the landfill. Right? And food waste is a tremendous concern on a global scale. so if we can, support regenerative agriculture, we can, decompose in the environment and we can convert food away from the landfill. it's really a good combination substrate and then, it replaces plastic in some of its fit fits use cases. I mean, I think that's, that's some of the product side, but you know why it's so important. I think nowadays you see a lot of the big brands making, audacious, goals, right? By 2025, by 2030, we're gonna. reduce plastic consumption or be compostable recyclable or reusable. So, there needs to be a substrate that can, meet that for these organizations. So I think fiber is gonna play a key role in helping a lot of these big brands meet their sustainability goals in the near term.
Cory Connors:Yeah. Yeah. Really important points about reducing food waste and diverting food from the landfill is a very important part of this whole process. I think it's, what's the latest out? I heard I, heard Rhode Jepson from B f I speak at the Sustainable Packaging Coalition. He talked about how people produce about a pound of food, a waste per day, per person, and If you think about that on an annual basis, that's pretty darn massive. Yeah. But I like to think of this like at events, you mentioned hotdogs earlier. You get a hotdog, it's in a tray, it's got ketchup and mustard and, all the condiments all over it. And it, goes, it spills into the tray. You can't put that into recycle bin. And, your, kid doesn't finish the hotdog. There's half one, half a. Dog left. He throw the whole thing in the compost bin with the tray and all of a sudden times a hundred thousand. This is a huge impact on our planet in a good way. Is that something you're working on with maybe with maybe people that put on like state fair or, and things like that? Is that something you've considered?
Robert Beagan:Well, I think, state fair is, of course, right? I think the scale of that is is, it's not scale. Right? So I think looking at, entertainment venues, sports stadiums, right? Your non-commercial types of sites, where, college and universities right are, super big on this, where there's a closed loop system. Yeah. Right. where you're, not taking food while you're, consuming food onsite. Everything is collected onsite and there's scalability there to that load. that's where you know it, makes perfect sense, right? It's, the perfect scenario for compostables. And, of course you mentioned like the food residue. That's, exactly what we want on the com, on the packaging, cuz that food residue helps kind of, accelerate the degradation process. We're on a recycling stream, it's a contaminant, it's, a waste management issue. It's a smell, it's a rodent issue. It's, all these other things, but, We'll take it on that foo, that food residue actually is beneficial to starting the composting process.
Cory Connors:God, that's a such a good point that moisture is, key to, starting the process. You just don't want it to go too fast. Right. Well, I don't think you're at risk of that though. No,
Robert Beagan:not going too fast. Not at all going slow. I think, if, we could be faster, I think, it would be great. But there's, the process takes time to decompose. So, it has to, that's let the, the, bacteria, to generate, to start, and stuff like that. So, yeah.
Cory Connors:In, a industrial compost facility, how long would these take to
Robert Beagan:break down? Well, it's, the standard process is, less than 180 days. Right? that's kind of the checkpoint for, compostability. But if you look at, the A S T M definition, it's, 90% integrion, 90%, 90% biodegradation. Oh gosh. it's, I think it's within the first, four to four to eight weeks. Right. So, there's a certain checkpoint of where you need to be with compostability. And that's, the thing with compostability versus Biodegradability. Let's talk about that for a second. a lot of, yeah. A lot of folks think those terms are interchangeable, where, they're really not. Compostability has scientific standards, has a scientific test method, and there's, like I said, there's certain checkpoints you need to meet, for that, to, be certified, to be compostable. Whereas biodegradable is a very loosely defined word, right? It's, unreasonable merit, periods of time. So what, does that mean? How do you quantify that? So that's where right. Composability is a little bit more, advanced in that, in, in that sense. But, we do see a lot of, brands or, products come out there where they could claim biodegradable which is nice, but it's really missing the mark,
Cory Connors:I agree a hundred percent. And I, think what I'm seeing is actually some pretty aggressive stances against the, claim of biodegradable. Yeah. Even to a point where in certain countries and certain states, it will be illegal to put that onto a packaging, which I fully agree with. Cuz we need to say that it's industrially compostable. We need to put that on the packaging. If it is, and if it isn't, then don't. And that's the simple answer. Very, well said. You, I saw on your website you've got a couple new fiber formulations pulp Plus, pulp Max and Pulp Ultra. Can you walk us through those and what, the differences
Robert Beagan:are? Yeah. Yeah. So, in the molded fiber space, there's been this, is the, P FFAs issue. I don't know if you've heard of that term, P F os pfas. Yeah. Yes. Right. a quick detour for, the audience, it's a fluoro chemical and what that chemical does, and it's very it's highly effective, right? So it's mainly used for grease resistance. In a lot of consumer products, and it's not just packaging, right? It's your non-stick cookware. It's your, your flame retardant clothing. It's in carpets, it's is in firefighting foams. So it's a widely used chemical. But you know, for food packaging specifically, it, it hits the mark for oil and grease performance. So in 2018, is when, I, took over the category and it was right after B p I had put out their change in policy where they were gonna no longer accept, P F O S into their certification program. So, and it wasn't just b p i it, was where the, data was going, where the reports were, indicating. So the whole industry was kind of posed with this challenge to replace p fops in their packaging. So, yep, we took it on as as an opportunity to lead, right? prior to, we've had one formulation, it was kind of an all for one, one for all type of product formulation and Right. And, so we went into this research, research and r and d process with, okay, let's replace p ffa s let's get one formulation out the door that, can, substitute it. And, through that process, we found another opportunity. We found some other pain points and we took it upon, our, the organization and said, let's restructure how we segment our, fiber category, right? It's no longer just pulp for everything. We took a look at it. You know how plastic is segment. You have p e t for cold food, polypropylene for hot food, cpe. For some, for Openable and stuff like that, right? So we took that same kind of framework and applied it to our, fiber category. So Pulp Plus was one of the first formulations we came out with, and that was, again, we're segmenting now towards different end user use cases, right? So we took a look at Pulp Plus as an opportunity to add a moisture resistant kind of low oil product into the market. Good for refrigeration, good for low, warm, temp type of oil products. But if you need hot oil, repeatable oil, pulp Plus, didn't fit that bill. That took us to Pulp Max. Polk Max was another generation through the r and d process where if you needed high, hot oil right, pretty much your one for one replacement of that P F A S kind of additive Holt Max was able to get you there. Wow. And, we found that, that when we took a look at our, customers and our product database or our customer database, not everybody needed p fops, right? for their application, right? If you're doing a sandwich and a salad right type of program or a cold catering program, for instance, you don't necessarily need hot oil. Resistance in all those products. So right. Again, we were meeting our customers, you know where they needed to be. So that was Pulp Max. And then we have this new product, pulp Ultra that's coming out over the summer, which kind of marries the best of both plus and Max. It's good for refrigeration, for extended period times. It's good for high hot oil. For reheating and oven, reheating and microwave. I mean, the ultra kind of captures, like I said, the best of both of those formulations and really replaces plastics fit for use, one for one and so on. Right. Amazing. That's what I talk, yeah. I talk about fit for use a lot, and I, think where the industry kind of pivoted a little bit is no longer, is it just the product. The food application, right? It's now like the, what's the environmental fit for use, right? How does it fit into the region, where you're gonna be using it? How that business, and those businesses inside that region, how are they disposing? Where are they disposing? Are they recycling? Are they are they land filling? Are they composting? So again, I think fit for use now, almost kind of, goes a little bit further than just the food applications, but really it's environmental impact. So that's kind of where I feel to your earlier question, why is multifier pulp so important? Is because we're meeting business and environmental goals through this kind of substrate.
Cory Connors:That's fantastic. And, do you feel like P F O S will be pretty much outlawed here soon? Or is it, are we on the way to that? Yeah
Robert Beagan:We're, on the way, the industry is on the way to it, the, major producers of the chemical, have voluntarily agreed to start, depleting and abandoning the, chemistry. I think it's by 25 or 26, within that time period, they should be stopping production of the chemical and moving into some of the alternatives, that they come up with, right? And, now there's laws to support that. Legislations played a huge part. In it as well. Organizations like B P I, have also played a, a good role in helping lead the way, and reset the standard, right? So if you want certification, if you want to be able to substantiate your claims, right, you need to remove P F A S, from your packaging. So you can kind of, and then, and the whole point is that getting into the compost pile, right? So if you don't have that right certification, you can't get in the compost pile. So, it's really part of the system now of, being done with P files. Yeah.
Cory Connors:Yeah, well said. And, such an important topic to discuss in the world of packaging cuz there are concerns from consumers. And I think more and more we're, very safe to use the mold, pulp products for food. Let's talk about consumers and do they understand what to do once they get something that has that's a compostable option.
Robert Beagan:Yeah, I mean that, that's a great question. I think the answer is, yes and no. Right? unfortunately, it's not black and white. composting, funny enough, composting really dates back to ancient times, right? We've been, you, we've been composting plant waste for For thousands of years. But, in this modern society, it's, we focus on such a linear economy where it's, we make, we take, and, we dispose we, throw away, we throw it away. Right away is like this magical place where it's no longer my problem, it's something else. It's in the bin. Right? Right. It's there, it's gone. But I, think where composing is starting to pick up, some traction what's helping customers understand what to do is the beyond product communication. So there's been a lot of good pre-competitive collaboration within, the packaging manufacturers, and I think DPIs played a tremendous role. The U SDCs played a tremendous role and, bringing us together, coming up with some standardization on, product labeling and some right, and some, and it's really voluntary at the moment. Right, for the most part. So how do present your compostability, a certification on product? What's the messaging you put on there? Yeah, but, yeah. And that's great, right? But I think that's not all we need, right? Because we can make, we can put tons of messaging on the product, right? We can label the bins the right way. We can have the right collections, but, we also need the consumer participation, right? We need consumers to actually care enough. To put in the recycle bin. Put in the waste bin. Put in the compost bin. Right. I see it all the time. I go to a restaurant, I go to an event. You have the recycle bin, the compost bin, and the waist bin and everything is co-mingled. Yeah. Everything's contaminated and it's, we're so convenient. Right. We're so programmed to be convenient right now. That we don't take a second, another second if you will, to say, okay, where do I put this? Let me read the sign the right way. Let, me try to understand. So I'd say yes and no. Composting is still new. But I believe we're gonna get there. I believe we're gonna get there.
Cory Connors:I agree. I, was at the Austin, Texas airport and I think it was awesome. I've been traveling a lot. But in their little food court all the packaging, all the cutlery, everything they, they sold. Was compostable and the bins they had were only compost bins. And I thought, wow, that's how you do it. You make it so it's like you said, convenient. This goes into that, this, I'm done with this. It's waste. It goes into there. And I thought that was really, fascinating. And I, at first I was frustrated. I was like, where's the recycle bin? You know what, what's going on here? And then I, saw. Everything was compostable, industrially, and I thought this is a closed loop system that I can wrap my head around. This makes sense. So I, see more and more of that coming. I wanted to talk to you a little bit about the proliferation of compost sites. Are you seeing more growth there in that world?
Robert Beagan:I'd say yeah, I'd say yes. Right. I think compost sites are gonna start to play a, big role in, in helping us take care of some of our waste. I think where there, there's a lot of legislation on the table, right? There's the Compost Act, the recycling and composting accountability, act and e P r. I think all those are gonna help us. Or, make more investment opportunities more viable for, compost sites, But, I don't know if it's really, I don't know if new sites are the answer, or, the only answer. Right? I think, there's about 4,700 composting fight sites in the us so what we really need is those sites to start to be able to take in more. Food waste more compostables and, update and modify some of their processes, a little bit as well, because, we can't wait for the new site to come online. There is a lot of, there is some red tape you need to go through right when, you do that. And we're, still consuming at a highly, fast pace. So we need to get some of the, current sites online. And help and helping them stick with the program, right. Giving them right incentive to stick with it help making sure they're part of the conversation. Right. We need the whole value chain. It's not just the packaging manufacturer. It's not just the consumer. It's, the hauler, it's the compost site, it's the brand it's, everybody in between to really make it effective. But yeah I do feel with legislation, It's really a new compass for our industry over the last couple of years, and legislation's gonna help investment into the composting space, whether it's retrofitting a current site or bringing new sites online. We're gonna see growth in both of those areas. Yeah,
Cory Connors:very important points and Will said I'm, excited about the future here and the, I always think of it like a pie, and, what's gonna be reusable? What's gonna be recyclable, what's gonna be compostable? I think those pie pieces will, continue to change over the next 20, 50 years in, in dramatic ways, I think eventually. But I, certainly think composting will be a large piece there. I. I was on your website and I saw paper cutlery . Yes. Let's, talk about that. Let's paper
Robert Beagan:cutlery. Yeah. Yeah. Paper cut. Real exciting product. So, yeah I mentioned the, growth platforms, which is my role now. So our growth platforms are right now focused on three core categories. It's multi fiber pulp out of our Texas facility. It's a paper cutlery, and then we have a, paper bowl. Right. But we'll, focus on the cutlery cuz it's really an innovative product for us. So this product line, Actually started with our European team in 2020, right? The European region had a single use plastic ban across the entire nation, right? And they need, they have a forced to move away from plastic coloring. So again, our team took this as an opportunity. how can we, how can we put this solve out there for the industry? So it started, it started with production in our China facility. We introduced this product line and it really, it, I mean, it matches plastics fitness for use. Nearly, one for one, right? This is not the paper straw. I know a lot of folks hear paper and they go right to the paper straw and ugh, no more. And yeah, and there's no more, I mean, I mean, that was an early, that was an early, that was an early initiative, right. to move away from plastic straws. But I mean, paper packaging has been around for, a heck of a long time and has been. Really successful in, in, in what they do when your layers are focused. Right. And, that's what we've been with this paper cutlery. So in, we've been in, in market for, in Europe for since 2020, so about three years now. And we're just starting to bring that over here into the us So we're, and part of the platforms that I work on, it's, not just about a product category, it's about infrastructure. Right? It's about right. Bringing production to North America. Right. Our molded fiber pulp is featured in our brand new state of the art. Facility in Greenville, Texas, right? So it's bringing what's been traditionally done overseas here to North America. And same thing with our paper Cutler. We're gonna, we have, we have a plan to bring in, 1216 machines over the next couple of years into our, extending our Richmond Virginia facility. Again, it's about infrastructure. It's about massive scale. And it's about seeing where the market needs to go next. Right. Market's been in polypropylene and cutlery for umpteenth years, right? It's been 98% of, the market here in North America and, a little bit different from Europe, right. Where Europe has, nationwide compliance, there's pockets of, compliance here needed in North America, right? Like Canada for instance, right? Is you know, has some plastic cutlery, bands, so, But this item has been, I know it's just a piece of cutlery and, I, and we get really excited about some of these big deal, but, yeah. It is a big deal. You know what I mean? And, funny enough, a lot of the, big brands out there, they see cutlery as a low hanging fruit, right? It's, a product that I. You, you put a ton of cutlery out there. The mark. Think about one of the, stadiums we mentioned earlier, or a concert arena. You know how many pieces of, spoons and forks and knives are going around that facility? Just from one event, right? Right. Now think about a, restaurant in, Manhattan or your Austin, Texas, where you were, or or any, you densely populate city, in, in the us it's 24 7, right? It's seven days a week. So cutlery is a big. it's a big category for a small item, but it's been a low hanging fruit. We see a lot of our big customers saying, you know what? We wanna start hitting our goal and we can start with cutlery, cuz it's a, it's an easy win for us. it's not as, I think the rigor. Cutlery takes versus a container is a little bit different. Right. Of course, cutlery is got some, you handle it a little bit, more, but your fit for use is a little less intense than a container that's gotta go from hot fill, refrigerated, microwave oven, right. Some of those type of things. So yeah, we're excited about paper cutlery. And we see a lot of the industry pivoted tours, wood cutlery, right outta the gate, right? Yeah. We had to meet compliance. A lot of folks went to wood and quite frankly, we've heard a lot of dissatisfaction with wood in the market. it just doesn't, have that same performance. Cutlery almost needs to happen. behind the scenes. Right. You shouldn't think about the fork knife for the spoon not using. Right, right. If you're thinking about it, I mean, usually you're not gonna hear, oh, this cutlery is great. I love it. You're gonna hear, you're gonna hear the complaint. Right. That's always the thing about packaging, right? If no, News is generally good news in packaging. It's when the bad news is when you really, it's when the noise starts to amplify. And that's so true for cutlery. If we're hearing. Oh, this, the Cutler leaves an aftertaste in my mouse. Or, it breaks when I use it. Or the spoons not deep enough to get a good, scoop, or a spoonful, these are issues, right? And the customers start to complain and, that causes, some, havoc for, some of these restaurants and food service providers.
Cory Connors:Yeah, very true. Very important points. Are you planning to go to any shows coming up? Will you be at Pack Expo in Vegas or as a company or
Robert Beagan:yourself? No, I won't be at Pack Expo. We have a team going to I D B A in a couple weeks. We'll be out there. We have a team going to nra. I think NRA is next week, right? So yeah, booth, an nra, but our team will be going out there. I plan to go to the B P I. They're, in Ag World Conference. I think that's towards the end of the year. Oh wow.
Cory Connors:When, where is that? Do you know?
Robert Beagan:It's in Minnesota. Gosh, I, I don't know the month, but it's, I think it's in the fall, right? I think it's September, October. I know. Don't, quote me on that. Check out the interesting website for that one, but yeah. Yeah. That should be a good event. It's their first event and they've just been a really good a leader, thought leader in the industry for us. So I'll be headed out there. And then we do a small event. I'm on the New Jersey composting council, so we have a small event here locally in New Jersey. So if anybody out there is in New Jersey, does business in New Jersey, reach out to us on the council. We'd love to hear from you. That's great. Yeah. What about you Where you headed?
Cory Connors:Oh yeah. So many shows coming up. Circularity coming up here in a little bit in Seattle Circularity 23. Yep. Then I've got some shows in October. And then Pack Expo in September. So really it's, important to get out there and learn about what's available. And I, really appreciate your time today. This has been great. What's the best way for people to get in touch with you and your
Robert Beagan:company? I. Yeah, sure. So, for, me, I'm, on LinkedIn, right? So if you want some tips and, advice on Compostability, zero waste, follow me on LinkedIn packaging specifically, right? saber.com, you can find a lot of information there. I'll give you my email address. We can post it in with some of the comments. It's our beacon sabert.com. If you're looking into to sync up on some compostable or plant-based packaging, that's probably the best ways to get ahold of me or, like I said about if you're in New Jersey, do business in New Jersey the, Composting Council and jcc. Yeah. I'm on the membership committee, so we're always looking for new members. Come on in.
Cory Connors:That's amazing. Yeah, no, I'm excited to, I'm excited to try out your, paper utensils. I think this sounds really interesting. I haven't seen 'em yet, so I think I might order some from you. Yeah,
Robert Beagan:I'll send you some, I'll send you some and let me know what you think. We'll
Cory Connors:make I'll make some talks about it to Oh, perfect. No doubt. Well, thank you so much, Robert. This has been awesome. Thank you Lances Aurora for sponsoring this podcast. If you're listening, make sure you subscribe so you don't miss the next episode, and stay tuned for more. Thanks, Robert. Thanks, Corey.
