Sustainable Packaging

Dr. Jon Smieja / GreenBiz

April 26, 2023 Cory Connors Season 3 Episode 212
Sustainable Packaging
Dr. Jon Smieja / GreenBiz
Show Notes Transcript

https://www.greenbiz.com/events/circularity/2023
An awesome conversation with Dr. Jon Smieja from GreenBiz 
Be sure to check out their four events throughout the year! 

What is the future of sustainability? 
How can packaging be more circular? 

Check out our sponsor Orora Packaging Solutions 
https://ororapackagingsolutions.com/

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Episode 212 Jon Smieja (GreenBiz) 

Cory Connors: ​[00:00:00] Welcome to Sustainable Packaging with Cory Connors. Today's guest is my friend, Dr. Johns Smieja . How are you, sir? I'm doing well. How are you, Corey? Good. Good. You're the Vice President of Circularity and a senior analyst at Green Biz. I'm excited to, to break through all of this those words and get to the bottom of what you do.

Because Green Biz is an awesome organization and what you guys are doing, it's really an important part of the world of sustainable packaging. So maybe I appreciate that. Oh, of course. Thank you. Maybe you could start a little bit with your, your background first. 

Jon Smieja: Well, First of all, thanks for having me.

I'm really excited. I love doing these kind of things. I generally, I usually describe myself as a recovering chemist. I have far too many degrees in this subject. Spent most of my twenties studying it. And when I got done with my PhD in chemistry I decided I didn't wanna work in a lab anymore.

I was, I was pretty much [00:01:00] done with the lab life, but what I did realize during that time my graduate research, I was trying to discover electro catalysts that could convert CO2 and water back into liquid fuels. So really what we were trying to do is close the liquid fuel cycle. Especially for, you know, sort of hard to electrify sectors, whether that was air travel, long haul, trucking, you know, et cetera.

So during my PhD research I made, you know, very, very minimal progress on that big. Big, hairy problem. But I did throughout that work develop a, a big passion for sustainability and contributing to sort of the, the fight against climate change, right? And so when I got outta graduate school, I ultimately found my way into corporate sustainability.

Worked at a couple of, of building product manufacturers for, for almost a decade before landing here at GreenBiz last year, almost exactly a year ago. And you know, that's my role here is really leading all [00:02:00] things circular economy for the company. 

Cory Connors: That's an interesting background, and it seems to be part of kind of the trifecta of sustainability We've got.

Fuel for vehicles, building supplies and packaging . So you've covered all three, 

Jon Smieja: sir. Well done. I'm, I'm working on it. . 

Cory Connors: Well, let's talk about green Biz. I think this is a really cool organization. You've got three events every year. Is that, is that right? Four events. Four events, okay. I, I just, oh, that's right.

I missed the, the first one earlier this year. Yes. The, what was the, what's the first one? 

Jon Smieja: Yeah, so well, let's start with let's start with what Green. So 

Green Biz is a media and events company, right? And our mission is to support professional communities working to address the climate crisis. And we do that through our events, our editorial coverage on our website.

We have peer-to-peer learning networks for corporate sustainability practitioners. We're developing some, some educational content, et cetera. We do webcasts, [00:03:00] you know, digital content, things like that. So we're really a media events company and we support these professional communities through these four big, I guess, categories or brands.

So first, the one that, that was just last month in Scottsdale, Arizona is our green. Forum and that's really supporting the profession of sustainability. So we bring sustainability leaders from across sectors together to talk about things like c s r strategy and, you know, all, all the different, the big corporate sustainability environment, governance.

Social pieces of, of working within a corporation. Another conference that we have that's gonna be in late June, is our Green FIN Conference, and that's really related to E S G and sustainable investing. And that conference will be in, in Boston this year, at the end of June. That's actually our newest event last year was the first, the first real in-person convening of, of that green fin group.

Mm-hmm. . Third we have our Verge event that's in [00:04:00] October in San Jose. And that's really all things climate tech. So it includes renewable energy, electrification, transportation, buildings and infrastructure, carbon markets, food and nature. It's really everything encompassed within what you would think of as like, The climate tech space and where people are focusing a lot of their energy on trying to address climate change.

Again, that one's in October in San Jose, and there's also a couple of of virtual events that go along with Verge that we do throughout the year. And then last definitely not least is the Circularity conference that I, I lead. That'll be June 5th through seventh in Seattle this year. 

Cory Connors: Very excited to go to circularity and hoping to go to more of the events.

I think , they all sound very interesting to me. The Verge event in San Jose, that, that sounds like a perfect spot for a high tech conference. We know as packaging suppliers to a lot of the high tech firms San Jose is a hotbed for innovation in the 

Jon Smieja: Yeah, definitely that. That conference actually brought together, I think we [00:05:00] were just over 4,000 people last year wow.

For that event. So it's, it's, it's, it's big and it's growing and it's just a really really high energy, exciting space to be in for those few days. For sure. Yeah. 

Cory Connors: Excellent. Well let's talk a little bit about circularity. It's in Seattle, the Great Northwest, just north of me. I'm excited to be able to drive to an event for a change, and But let's, let's go through kind of how it works, what it's, what it's about in the focus of it.

Jon Smieja: Yeah, so the Circularity Conference is really you know, we think of it as the premier event for, for corporate folks government people, NGOs that are working in the circular economy space. We're expecting. Upwards of 1200 people probably 200 to 250 speakers, two and a half days of content with, you know, more than 50 breakout sessions, as well as about three hours of keynote programming.

Over those three days it's actually the conference is split into six learning tracks. There's plenty of overlap, I guess, within them [00:06:00] because, because circularity is such a, a relatively new space within corporate sustainability. So our six tracks are business innovation and strategy. So really how do you gear your business up to support circular economy circular supply chains, so looking both upstream and downstream at, at who you're buying from.

How you're getting your products to and from locations, et cetera. Mm-hmm. We've got enabling policies, so that's where we'll talk about things like e p r. Yeah. And, you know, some of the, some of the laws going moving forward in Europe as well as things like bottle bills and, you know, all the things that sort of support a circular economy in the recycling infrastructure.

We've got a full track on materials. So really, you know, what do materials for a circular economy look like? How do we transition away from maybe the petrochemical plastics that we use now to something, to something new and innovative? We've got a next, next gen products and packaging track.

That one's probably most interesting to you and your listeners, and that's where we'll talk about things. You know, deep innovation in packaging reuse, refill models [00:07:00] new types of packaging, et cetera, as well as the products that companies are, are really innovating around to support the circular economy.

And then last and I think. To some degree, this will be a through line, through almost every session is the idea of stakeholders and social impact. Mm-hmm. So how do we think about historically marginalized communities folks that are, you know, on the fence lines of these giant chemical plants, things like that, like the impacted communities that should be front and center as we're thinking about transitioning to circularity.

Cory Connors: Wow. That's a, that sounds amazing. And an, and an impressive assortment of things , to witness and learn from. I, I need to go to this conference three times and, and just, just so I can absorb it all. And I, the intention is to go as kind of you know, press and to, to see, and to learn and to report.

So thank you for letting me know about all the different tracks. I think that's , that's perfect for me to get 

Jon Smieja: to know. Yeah. . Yeah. Yeah. They're, they're a little [00:08:00] fuzzy, but they, they at least help guide people as they're, as they're choosing sessions. 

Cory Connors: Yeah. A lot of conferences, it can be a challenge to, to know where to go.

And some people aimlessly wander. Some people have very precise goals. I must go to this booth at this time and I have a meeting with this person. So it's interesting to see the different You know, ways to attend a conference. But I'm excited to listen to the speakers. We, we were talking a little bit about before the, the show, how many people applied to be speakers at your event?

Do you, will you wanna talk about that a little bit? 

Jon Smieja: Yeah. So we, we accept, you know, open speaker nominations for a couple months. It was actually late last year. It closed. At the end of the year we ended up, Over 500 speaker submissions. And like I mentioned, you know, we, we. 50 breakout sessions and about 200 speakers total.

So the 500 speaker nominations was, was by far a, a new record for this event, . And you know, in addition to that, what we're [00:09:00] seeing as more and more companies are putting resources, adding people to support circular economy, economy initiatives, what we're seeing is not only an increase in the number of submissions, but also the quality.

It was really hard. To sift through those 500 and find, you know, even the top 100 there, there's just a lot of really good submissions this year. So we think that the, the content is, is only getting better and as companies put more focus on this. 

Cory Connors: I think you're right. And, and what I'm seeing in at different conferences is the same.

The, the level of information, the gravity of news is continuing to rise. And that's exciting to see and it makes it even more and more interesting to go and, and more valuable to go, yeah. To shows like, like circularity. At circularity there is Contest A, a sustainable packaging contest put on by US plastics, and you're gonna be one of the judges for that.

You wanna talk about that a little bit? [00:10:00] 

Jon Smieja: Yeah. So the US Plastics Pact and Walmart have actually Collaborated last year was their first year and they, they handed out four packaging innovation awards in the different categories were reusable, packaging, compostable, refillable, and recyclable. And we were, we were fortunate enough at GreenBiz to partner with, with U S P P and Walmart at our Verge conference last fall where they announced their first set of winners.

And that was, you know, that was great. But really from my perspective, it fits perfectly within our circularity conference. So they've pushed their their award period actually up so that it aligns with circularity this year. And they're gonna be announcing those winners. And we'll have the winners on the keynote stage at circularity.

But I was also really lucky to be asked to be a judge on, on the, the judging panel for these awards. And I'll tell you, you know, I got a chance to. All the judges over the last few weeks and you know, I think the submissions are in great hands, . We had a lot of experts on the panel. [00:11:00] You know, with the exception of myself top-notch group of, of individuals stop

But you know, they, they're, they're expecting hundreds of submissions. Yeah. The four winners are gonna be invited again to participate at circularity 23 and, you know, get an exposure to a, a large number of, you know, corporates that use a lot of packaging. And so hopefully we can, we can raise awareness around these innovations.

And I'll add, , Walmart. Has recently created this the circular connector tool that you can, you can view and see some of these innovations that they've identified in packaging. And it's just their way of sort of sharing with the broader community of consumer packaged goods companies, like what's out there, what's available, and how you can work with these folks to, to help scale their innovations.

And so that's, that's a really cool initiative and we're, we're excited to, to partner with, with the Plastics Pack and Walmart on. You 

Cory Connors: know, it's an incredible story. And Walmart has been an innovator for many years with their sustainability scorecard. I don't know how many years that goes back, but [00:12:00] they, they changed the, they changed the game.

And for all of us in the world of packaging, we all of the sudden had to. Pay attention to what sustainability meant and how it would affect our customers and how it would affect consumers. And so well done to them. And they continue to push the envelope there and that's really cool. 

Jon Smieja: Yeah, yeah.

Between, between that and Project Gigaton and some of the other projects they're doing, they're really yeah, yeah. They're really trying to, to push the envelope on sustainability. And 

Cory Connors: the winners of these, this contest will give an opportunity to be on this podcast. Nice. So that's that's another thing that Tiana Lightfoot from the US Plastics Pact has, has arranged and I'm an honored to be a part of that.

So exciting news. Yeah. So, well, let's talk about sustainable packaging a little bit. And I'd love to know your thoughts. We got to hear some of your thoughts at APAC a week ago, and that was really cool to hear [00:13:00] you and and Chris Bradley speak. But I'd like to know something in the world of sustainable packaging that you are excited about, something that you think is a great innovation that could actually make a big.

Jon Smieja: Yeah. You know, I would, I would say ultimately I'm interested in anything that reduces the overall amount of packaging in the world. Yeah. You know there's, there's a couple examples I can think of. So one that's really simple is that I recently ordered a pair of shoes from a brand called Cuma, and they were founded in Brazil.

They're sort of founded on this idea of sustainability. They plant two trees in the Brazilian rainforest for every pair of trees. You order, you know, a lot of that kind of stuff. But actually one of the most exciting things was when I got my shoes. . It was in a single box that had a, like a pull tab? Yeah.

You op, you pulled the pull tab off. Your shoes are inside. There's no air pockets. There's no extra packaging. It's just a shoebox. And like that kind of thing is exciting to me because honestly, my [00:14:00] street shoes are not gonna get damaged in shipping . They don't need, they don't need a second box. They don't need air packet, air pa, air pouches or peanuts.

You know, they don't need any of that stuff. So like, that kind of stuff is exciting to me. Anytime that we can actually reduce the amount of, of overall packaging, that's a win in my book. Second thing that I'm really excited about is, you know, refillables and sort of the, the innovations happening there.

So, I know that a lot of consumers don't feel ready for it, . They feel like it's an added inconvenience. But I am excited about some of the recent trends. You know, there's brands out there like Blueland mm-hmm. that are selling fillable tablets and you just dissolve them in water and your reusable bottle.

That's great, right? Yeah. And then to see that that's happening alongside big brands like Clorox, who was one of the winners of, of the, the awards last year, you. Putting together their own refillable models. All that stuff is, is really interesting to me. And I think the, the idea of sort of transitioning these, these small players having success into the big [00:15:00] players saying, okay, now we gotta do this, that, that's right.

That's a really exciting move for me. And then the last one I'll, I'll. I'll sort of point out is, is re reuse reusables. Hmm. You know, it, it's a difficult conversation. Most brands aren't willing to sort of fall on the sword and be the, the first ones to like fully implement reuse solutions at scale. Right.

And we're currently seeing all these pilot programs. You know, there was, there was one there was one in, in the uk one of the, one of the retailers where they were trying to re a reuse refill sort of model. And what's interesting is that, You get consumer sentiment in polls that say people are willing to, to participate in reuse models, but then you do these pilot projects and people hate it.

And actually just a couple weeks ago we had Olga Kook who leads the Sustainable Packaging Coalition co-write or guess rate, our Circularity Weekly newsletter. And she talked in that piece [00:16:00] about how. You know, you can't expect consumers to enjoy a reuse experience. When it's a very niche one-off.

Mm-hmm. not part of their regular routine sort of thing. Right. It only inconveniences you if it's a pilot. And so what I'm really waiting for is that first big brand to say, okay, we're in on reuse, we're gonna do it, and we're gonna. We're gonna sort of push people. And I think oftentimes brands, especially the big brands, don't really recognize their power in doing that

And I would love to see a little more of that. So anyway, those are a few things I'm excited about. I, I wouldn't say there's any one thing, but I'm excited about some of the trends in some of these spaces. 

Cory Connors: I don't think there's a wrong answer to that question, but I do think that what you said is the right answer because you, you can't nail down one thing.

And I get asked all the time, what's the main, what's the main point of sustainable? I don't you, you can't do that. You stop it. Yeah. You know, that's not a question, that's not a thing. It's too [00:17:00] vague. It's too op openly you know, unspecific. So what you have said is exactly. In my opinion, the pie that we're looking to, to expand in this world of sustainability, and you're right, consumers shouldn't be pushed to, to do all this stuff until, until it's convenient for them.

Yep. And I agree 100% They. I often get questions from consumers saying, well, how am I supposed to remember all this stuff and you know, this, I don't get it. For now I have to bring my bags to the store, and then now I have to bring the packaging back. Geez, man, that's a, you know, well, what if it was really easy?

Yeah. And what if it was very convenient? 

Jon Smieja: Well said. I mean, it's not, you know, it's not that much different than if you would've asked somebody in 1995 to carry a cell phone with them everywhere. They would've said, how? How am I supposed to remember to do that ? Like, I already have my keys in my wallet. But now, you know, you get up from your desk and you don't have your cell phone in your hand, you feel weird, right?

And so I think, I think there's an opportunity here that, that we're just not [00:18:00] taking advantage of. And I always. The best form of a circular economy is one that people can participate in without really noticing. Yeah. And, and there's a lot of work to do to get there, but I, I think, I think we can. 

Cory Connors: Yeah.

Simple things like reusable water bottles when you travel or every day. I was at my kid's school last night for a board meeting, and they put in one of those refill stations. It already had in just a few months, 23,000 uses. Yeah, that's 23,000 potentially water bottles that it weren't necessary.

And I, and were replaced by something sustain. Yeah, and 

Jon Smieja: fantastic. Funny aside on that how did, how did people like you and I ever survive in school? I don't remember ever seeing a kid bring a reusable water bottle to school, and now my daughter loses it if she doesn't have it. I, 

Cory Connors: I will never forget the, the rusty flavor of the water at the school that I went to as a kid, and we thought it was normal.

Yeah, . But [00:19:00] you know, it made us tougher. I think public school was great, and, and I live in Oregon where water's supposed to be amazing. But yeah, some of the schools just didn't have the right filters on the, on the pipes. Yeah. 

Jon Smieja: For sure , 

Cory Connors: but you're, you're exactly right. And our kids are leaders in, in recycling and in, you know, paying attention to sustainable alternatives.

Like we had a waiter Ask us if we wanted straws and my daughter is seven. She's like, no, we don't need straws. You know, like, okay. Oh, thank, well done me. Nice job, . I was so proud of her, you know? Awesome. Yeah. Well, anything else that you wanted to talk about for circularity? I, I think it's a, a big event.

Maybe there's some, some other things that we need to. Yeah. 

Jon Smieja: You know, not specifically on the event. I think what we, you know, what we saw at GreenBiz this, this last month in Scottsdale is really. [00:20:00] A lot of people starting to recognize the urgency yeah. Around this. And I think when we get to the circular economy space, the urgency has to be, has to be the same.

Right. It's you know, people ask me sort of like what I'm concerned about and it's like, I'm concerned about everything. Like yeah. But, you know, if there's, if there's something that sort of keeps me up at night about packaging, You know, it's, it's this idea that we're really, we're currently just sort of picking around the edges, right?

Like, there's these small scale innovations, there's pilot projects. Like, I feel like we really need to dig into that, like, that core, that sort of, you know, what, what it is that that packaging is supposed to provide and start over. One of my favorite examples is, you know I used to, I used to have the, the, the privilege of talking to Bill McDonough when I, when my first job because we, we certified to the cradle, the cradle certification program.

And he always talked about this complete redesign of the cereal box. Mm-hmm. . And now, 10 years later, I, [00:21:00] I think about that and I'm like, we don't need to redesign the cereal box. We need to redesign how we deliver products to people. . Right? So the box isn't necessary. And you know, I'll be, I'll be, I guess the first to admit like, this is not easy.

No, but I'm still gonna share this message with whoever will listen, because I think it's a starting point, right. To, just to think about how we sort of if, if you don't mind me using a really sort of nerdy term that I picked up from politics, that we need to move the Overton, the, the Overton window needs to move on packaging, right?

Yeah. We need to reconsider what, what people will think. Is okay and acceptable . And we just really need to push we need to push a lot further and a lot faster. And the hope is that the circularity conference, you know, in, in packaging and apparel and tech and the built environment, like in all those spaces, that we can really sort of start pushing that conversation to the next level to move us further faster and really accelerate this transit.

Cory Connors: and well said, and, and [00:22:00] nerds are the ones that are gonna solve these problems. And oh, I'm a, I'm a proud packaging nerd. And I, I have had several people say, you know, you really are a packaging nerd. And I'll say, yes, I am. And we must unite to solve the world's problems. And where 

Jon Smieja: like, we're like a badge, right?

Cory Connors: Yeah. I need another patch. We talked about patches for, for circularity. I, I need a, a packaging nerd patch. Maybe we should. Maybe we sh I'll get my friend Evelio Mattos to create some of those. So, . But this has been great. Thank you again, John, and I appreciate your wisdom. Yeah, thanks 

Jon Smieja: for having me. This is, this was fun.

Cory Connors: Yeah. What's the, what's the best way for people to get in touch with you and to, to sign up for your events? 

Jon Smieja: Yeah, so first of all, you can find anything. I and my, my great teammates, sues and Corey and everybody else on the GreenBiz team right at GreenBiz dot. B I z. Pretty simple. Yeah. You can find me on LinkedIn, Twitter at John Schmeer.

I'd also encourage folks, if you go to [00:23:00] greenbiz.com, there's an event's link at the top and you can learn a ton more about all four of our events. But selfishly, learn more about circularity. Sign up, join us in Seattle. It's gonna be great. And you're gonna be there. That'll help. Hopefully that draws, draws, draws all the sustain or the, all the packaging nerds with you, 

Cory Connors: we must get together.

Right. and i, I, I signed up for all four of your newsletters and have, have been very impressed so far. So thank you for that 

Jon Smieja: advice. Yeah. Well thank you for, for having me and for, for highlighting the, the work Green Does. Does, 

Cory Connors: yeah. Thank you, sir. And if you're listening, make sure you subscribe so you don't miss the next episode.

And stay tuned for more. Thank you.