GreenBlue with Dr. Ruth Maust and Mr. Tom Pollock

https://greenblue.org/
https://sustainablepackaging.org/

Dr. Ruth Maust and Mr. Tom Pollock are amazing sustainable packaging professionals and it was an honor to speak with them both. 

What is Green blue and how are they affecting positive change in the world? 
How did the How To Recycle label come to be? 
What is the future of sustainable packaging? 

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This podcast is an independent production and the podcast production is an original work of the author. All rights of ownership and reproduction are retained—copyright 2022.

Transcript

Cory Connors: 0:31

Welcome to Sustainable Packaging with Cory Connors. Today's guests are my friends from Green, blue, and the spc. We've got Dr. Ruth Maust and Mr. Tom Pollock. How are you guys?

Tom Pollock: 0:42

Great. Doing great. How are you, Corey? Happy to be

Cory Connors: 0:44

here. Great, great. Ruth, let's start with you and, and talk a little bit about your background. I know you're newer to green Blue, but we we're excited to hear where, where

Tom Pollock: 0:53

you came from.

Dr. Ruth Maust: 0:54

Yeah, so my background is in chemistry and I've always been really interested in how to use chemistry as a set of tools to solve sustainability problems. So that was a pretty good fit for Green, blue and spc. And since I joined, I've been working on issues relating to plastic packaging mostly. But how do we think about plastic materials, how to keep those materials in circulation, and how to design those materials better.

Cory Connors: 1:19

Very exciting and such a key part to all of the sustainability mix. How about you,

Tom Pollock: 1:24

Tom? Yeah, I actually started off at Green Blue about 10 years ago. It was a different organization little smaller. We were kind of exploring some of the sustainability questions that I feel like we might take for granted today. But I started off at forest products, so really looking at you know, how do we source fiber for, for paper-based packaging and, and looking at everything from. Sourcing to recyclability. And in the last year or so, I've changed my position to partnerships where we're really strategically focusing on partners that are working on similar initiatives, sustainability projects as we are, and finding ways to, to go to scale or share resources, you know, create critical mass on some of the important issues that that we share with our, our key partner. That's

Cory Connors: 2:09

excellent. And you have a very important role at the events, the SPC events., I've ended up on a couple of your excursions. So one part of the s SPC that a lot of people don't know about is that at each event, it's not just staying in the. Hotel we mm-hmm., we, we go to different things. Do you want to speak to that a little bit and talk about maybe some of the, the neat excursions that we've got , to experience?

Tom Pollock: 2:36

Yeah, sure. I'm glad you bring that up cuz I was actually at an event last week and someone was telling me how much they like sort of the random networking that happens at spc, where, yeah. What example is the tour? So we have a lot of great tours where we'll go to MRF's , we'll visit different packaging plants, all kinds of, of great events. Luckily, and you and I got to go on this one last time, you know, every once in a while we get one that Is maybe a little bit more u unique and we got to go to the Porsche racing Center and museum, which was, was great. So I was looking forward to the whole event in Austin or in Atlanta , this last time. But the, the Porsche, the Porsche tour was one thing. It was definitely on my calendar. So we had a, we had a great time there. You end up on the bus with people that you didn't really expect and get to have some great conversations. So the tours are sometimes the best, best parts of of the events for a lot of people.

Cory Connors: 3:23

I agree, and, the events are incredible. The speakers that you choose and are top notch. But you're, thank, you're right. It's, it's exciting to get to go. On the tours, I got to meet Linda from Kraft Heinz. We just ended up sitting next to each other on the bus, on the way to the paper factory, and I thought, wow, this is awesome. She just to get to meet her. She's such a neat person, but. Let's go back to a little bit about sustainable packaging and Ruth, let's start with you. I get this question a lot. How do we choose a material versus a different material when selecting packaging? Are there guidelines that you go

Tom Pollock: 4:02

by? I would say it's

Dr. Ruth Maust: 4:03

a lot about trade offs. And what your priorities are for that packaging. The most important thing when it comes to packaging is that packaging serves a really important purpose. So we don't want to prioritize the material so much that the performance of that package actually is disadvantaged. But then I think it's about what your, what your priorities are. Thinking about, you know, paper and plastic as just an example paper has some advantages in that it's more recyclable right now in our current system. At least traditional paper packaging. There's some questions about that with the newer paper formats that are coming out. But plastic is less recyclable currently, but there may be cases where plastic can perform a job. That paper can't do. Or that you would need a lot more paper to perform the same job as a you know, a thin layer of plastic. So those are things to be thinking about if you're gonna be packaging food. Mm-hmm., thinking about how do you reduce food waste, that's a really high priority in terms of sustainability because food waste. Is a huge contributor to, to emissions. And that's, you know, kind of far outweighs the impact sometimes of the packaging, which is what we can get a little bit caught up in sometimes. So thinking about the bigger impact of the system, what's the job that that packaging is doing? And then from there, thinking about what material will suit that purpose.

Cory Connors: 5:21

Yeah, well said. So, so important to talk about the longevity of the item and you know, there's nothing sustainable about rotten food. It's something we often say on this show, and such an important key point there. How about you, Tom? Same question.

Tom Pollock: 5:37

Yeah. And then Ruth did a great job explaining that. So maybe a couple of examples just to kind of put, put a, a finer point on it. But you know, you, I think you wanna look at the, you know, the technical feasibility. The technical performance of a package. So I was talking to someone last week from the medical devices and medical packaging field, so, There are certain, , they're actually regulated by the f d A, so there's just certain types of packaging based on, you know, if something's sterile or, , the, the different health implications , of that material. So they really don't necessarily have a choice in, in material materials for their packaging. So once you've gotta figured out the technical feasibility, then you can, I think, , get into more of the sustainability criteria. And really that comes down to, as, as Ru said, so, well, you know, what, what's the job it's supposed to do? And what are your, what are your sustainability goals? So I did bring an example that might be helpful, but this is, I think everyone's familiar with the soda. Yeah. Case here, and this is one where this particular company decided to move to a fiber based format. So they knew they could get the technical and performance characteristics to, to carry a, a six pack of mini ginger ales, but decided to use fiber because they thought it would be more of their sustainability goals. And then of course, the last piece which we can't forget is cost. So, yep, there may. You know, excellent sustainability considerations, and opportunities. But the costs can sometimes be prohibitive. So it's great to see all the innovation, especially going on with paper packaging and as Ruth said, , choosing between paper plastic isn't a one size fit all. You really have to kind of consider those, those three elements.

Cory Connors: 7:04

Excellent points. Tom. Thank you so much. Mm-hmm., and I like that example a lot. That's a, that's a perfect one because it's been highly debated in the industry and I think People still are firm on both sides, . So we'll see. We'll see how that one shakes

Tom Pollock: 7:18

out. Did you notice the unpack label there too? I did,

Cory Connors: 7:22

sir. Yes. The how to Recycle. We should, we should speak to that a little bit. Does one of you wanna speak to the How to Recycle Label and how that came about? It's such a cool story.

Tom Pollock: 7:32

Ruth, feel free to kick us off . Yeah. I

Dr. Ruth Maust: 7:35

dunno if I can, I can speak to how it came about, but it's, it's meant to be clear communication to consumers about how to recycle different packaging components. So I think on that package there are two different. Parts to the label because there are two different materials that are part of that package. And you know, sometimes they may both be recyclable, sometimes not. So teaching consumers what they need to separate do they need to take some pieces apart or is one part recyclable and the other part isn't? If it's all one material, that's great, but still there's a lot of confusion about recycling and where things go and. Packages that look exactly alike. You know, even to someone who's in the field, it's not necessarily a given that that thing is gonna be recyclable when the other one isn't. So, oh, true. Uh, It's, it's, there's a lot to wade through and as clear and as simple as we can make it

Tom Pollock: 8:25

the better off we are.

Cory Connors: 8:26

Well said. And, and Tom, the, the impetus for the How to Recycle label started as the s SPC committee if I'm, if I'm not mistaken.

Tom Pollock: 8:35

That's right. No, I, I'm really glad you asked that too. And, and I think Ruth did a great. Job explaining, you know, what, what the labels meant to do. I mean, it was a process that we did with our members, with our partners, and it really started off as a conversation, an S P C conference where you know, somebody asks, what if we had a label on packaging so people knew what to do with it? Because , you've heard of Wish cycling and., people, , throwing things in blue bins that shouldn't be there, or not throwing things in the blue bin that shouldn't be there. So this is really a way to help the consumer with these really clear, helpful labels, understand whether or not they can, they can put their, their material into the blue bin, or if it should be dropped off at a store that has a store drop off. Or if it's something where you need to, to check locally and see what, what your local infrastructure can accept. So it's, it's been really successful and I'm always proud to . show examples to people of the how recycle label on all kinds of of products and packages. It really

Cory Connors: 9:25

has done a, an impressive job. I was just at apec Monday and we were talking about the ways that the organization can be more effective. And I used the how to recycle label from the S SPC as an example of something very successful that came out of a, a nonprofit organization and has been making an impressive change in the way that consumers recycle packing. So well done.

Tom Pollock: 9:49

Excellent. Thank you. Yeah, it just shows the power of collaboration and, and collective action.

Cory Connors: 9:54

Yeah. There's 20 economies represented by APEC and they were all very interested in, in that concept, so we talked about it in length. It was really cool. Great. But let's talk about flexible packaging. And Ruth, I, I'd like to to talk to you about , how has flexible packaging changed and as far as the end of life for it are there different considerations being made? Are there different materials being introduced? Can you speak to that a little

Tom Pollock: 10:21

bit?

Dr. Ruth Maust: 10:22

Yeah, so flexible packaging. My impression of it's a, it's a growing area. Flexible packaging is being used more and more. And my understanding of why that is, is because it uses a lot less material than some other packaging formats to perform the same job. That's really great in terms of things like carbon emissions whether for transportation or for just the usage of material in general. So it has some great benefits.. But the other side of the coin is that flexible packaging is challenging to deal with when it's, you know, when it's been used. So thinking about end of life solutions and if it's gonna be adopted more and more, we need to be thinking about that end of life phase from the beginning, from the design phase. So there are end of life options. They all need, you know, further. Support for their growth. One of those is mechanical recycling typically, and that would be collected, material collected through the store, drop-off system. There's some still, I think a lot of confusion about that type of flexible packaging format that people think that they can put it in their regular recycling bin because it may have the chasing arrow symbol. They think, okay, it's recyclable. Let's just throw it in there. But that's everything from grocery bags to, you know, your, your plastic mailers to mm-hmm. Bread bags and all those sorts of things. So it is a separate stream. As of right now, there are some trials and pilots to see what it would look like to collect that material curbside, but it's, it's difficult. Yeah. In terms of, of innovation there. You know, on the material side trying to design that material that if it does get collected, that it can be a higher quality. So that often looks like, you know, minimizing the number of materials going to all polyethylene, for example, rather than something that has five or six different layers of materials that you. Could recycle, but it's gonna be a, not a challenge. Great product that anybody wants to buy and, and use again. So those things are there. There's also you know, work on compostable films to think about if it's not gonna be recycled. What are the other pathways? Again, we need more infrastructure and support for being able to collect and actually compost material in more places around the country. And then there's different recycling technologies that Can potentially take either mixtures of different types of film or, you know, slightly have slightly different specifications for what they can take. But still there's that design component that. If it's recycling, we can't just put everything in there together. We still wanna have clean, sorted, and, you know, a minimal number of different materials that are in that stream, regardless of what the recycling method is. So there's work in a lot of different areas, but it's it's. A little slow. It's a complicated area. Yes. And I think all of those areas need to be supported more so that we can, you know, fit them in to, to solve pieces of the problem and eventually get the whole thing to, to work a bit better.

Cory Connors: 13:28

Excellent points. The, the process takes time. Mm-hmm., and I think we need to be patient, but aggressive and , you're exactly right. There are some, some success stories with a switch to mono material, even multilayer mono material. When I first heard that, I th I said, what? Mm-hmm., but these companies are, are making major advances to, to successful like Tom said at the beginning it must work, it must be effective first and then recyclable second. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Very well said. So let's switch gears a little bit to paper packaging. Tom, you just released a new resource with a very long title, so I'm gonna read

Tom Pollock: 14:07

it here.. Yeah, that's for sure.

Cory Connors: 14:09

Paper packaging, recyclability test methods and specifications guide. Tell us about that. What is that?

Tom Pollock: 14:16

Yeah, I, it's, you know, at, at the end of the day, it is a document that is meant to give people a, an overview, sort of a recyclability 1 0 1 of what's the technical process to determine if a paper package is recyclable. So we went through a lot of different titles and we thought that, you know, being specific there would, would, would help us the most, but. This was another collaborative an s SPC collaborative, which is, you know, part of our Sustainable Pack coalition. We bring in we have over 650 members of S P C, ranging across materials, supply chains from brand owners to material manufacturers. And with that, you know, large of a membership, we have these collaboratives, which are, are basically industry work groups where they'll, they'll really focus in on one particular challenge, a question that they have. And this one was called the mixed paper collaborative. And basically they were trying to explore the question of, , how do I understand. How a paper package is tested for whether it's recyclable, and then I can use that in, in how I design a package. So I think there was sort of a, you know, a, a general idea of, of how that process works. We know that there's, there's laboratories out there that you can send your package to and they'll come back with a report, but we really wanted to kind of break it down into accessible, understandable pieces so that somebody that might not have a, a scientific or technical background could sort of understand how that. How that process works. So it was actually a really interesting process. We got to work with partners like the Fiber Box Association, AF and p a, the American Forest Paper Association, tlm, I, we brought in, you know, a, a, a really big tent to, to uh, to develop , this guide. And it really basically takes you step by step to the process from, you know, what, how a package is. Goes through the, the testing process, what that report looks like, how to interpret the results , from that report. Again, so that when it goes back to the design team or folks that are working on sustainability initiatives and goals that that the organizations that they can, you know, start with some information so that, , when they're, , like we're looking at the, , the ginger ale six pack carrier. They can start with an idea. Once it gets out into the marketplace, will that be technically recycled? Of course there's, you know, there's other elements that determine if something is, is considered recyclable, which we can get into. But this guide was specifically looking at that step of the process of, of recyclability. So can it go through a pulper and be screened and sorted so that you get a appropriate fiber yield to then, you know, reuse into another product. I wasn't gonna get technical, but I, I couldn't call myself again there. You, you're

Cory Connors: 16:43

both too smart for me. This is great. I, I think it's impressive and we, we need to be technical and talk about those differences, but we also need to be able to educate somebody who is a consumer mm-hmm. or, or somebody inside a business that maybe doesn't have a packaging background. So to be able to, speak to something in a way that all can understand, but then, but then people like you two and, and you know, I'm working on it, but that technical experts can understand as well, so very, very important. So the, the last one I had for you specifically Tom, was about the C E P I webinar. What is that and what did the audience learn about in.

Tom Pollock: 18:01

Yeah, thanks for asking. C E P I or some, some folks call it CEPI . It's the confederation of European paper industries. So they are an association in Europe that represents the pulp and paper industry. But you know, it's, it's their, you, the work they do really. Expands into circularity and recyclability and lots of sustainability issues. They do a lot great work. So , I recommend anyone to take a look at their, their their website. We had two speakers from one was from sappy. One was actually from DS Smith, which is one of the., it's a patching company that's that's based out of the uk And we really invited them to speak to us about the recyclability testing specifically. It was sort of part of when this report came out, but I think more interestingly, more importantly, What are, what, what are, what's happening in the EU in terms of you know, their challenges and questions around packaging, sustainability and recyclability? So Maria, I had to write it down cause I, I don't wanna get her name wrong. George Giu from Sappi and Hi, Lacey from DS Smith. Maria really took us through, you know, regulation and how that's influencing packaging design in Europe. So you've probably heard of the single use plastic ban. So she really gave a really, how those different regulations in the EU are affecting packaging design, which is., quite a bit. And then a guy from GS Smith kind of took us through the technical process of, of how Recyclability works in the, the, the MEFs and Reprocessors in, in the uk. And I think that the takeaways that were, were really interesting from, from that was that a lot of the same questions that we're asking in the United States of Canada and North America., but the same questions that they're, they're working on there. We have, we kind of have parallel paths even though sometimes the drivers are a little bit different. And then so, you know, second, and we got this from a lot of the comments from our members, was there's so many opportunities to work together. You know, the, the, the, the processes and the questions and the challenges are also similar. It just makes sense to do more work together from, you know, Sappi and, and with, with organizations here and many of the members that we have. Our global brand. So it, so let's, you know, see if we can, define recyclability and the guidelines and, and the best practices the same way in North American, Europe, and beyond. So that, , we're all kind of working , from the same guidebook., Cory Connors: The, the Europeans and thankfully they're taking risks right now. Mm-hmm. When I was in Paris in January at Paris Packaging Week, I was amazed at the efforts they're taking.. It's an incredible time to be a part of the sustainable packaging for sure. And I think they're gonna learn a lot. And I think we should ask them, Hey, did that work? Or What do you recommend we do here in, in the US and the rest of the world? Absolutely. Uh, I think that leads right into this next question really well, and Ruth, I was hoping to get some more insights on how do you design a package for recycling?

Dr. Ruth Maust: 20:46

That's a great question, and I think it depend. There's, so Tom kind of hinted at, you know, there's more parts to recyclability than just the technical part that is part of it. I think recyclability overall depends on where you are, the context and what kind of infrastructure you have there. For the other pieces, which are collection sortation, can it be reprocessed? And then is there a market for the material? But on the design side, You can think about, you know, like a test method, like what Tom was describing for paper. Thinking about on the reprocess ability side, how do you design a package from the beginning? Keeping in mind like, can it, can that material technically be recycled? And then can you design even for the sortation systems where you are. So there are some differences between Europe. For the US or Australia, for example, on like what kind of sorting infrastructure there is. Mm-hmm. And especially for plastics, the extent to which plastics are sorted out into different streams versus they're all just kind of bu bundled together in one stream. So thinking about how is a material gonna travel through a typical material recovery facility in the place that you are.. Is it big enough that it can actually be collected and it's not gonna fall through the cracks? Or do you need some kind of there's some innovations also coming out in how do we capture smaller materials that typically would fall through the cracks in the, in that sorting process? So keeping those things in mind and, and kind of having some understanding of what is the pathway of a package from use to. All the way to actually making it to be recycled into a new product. What are all the steps and stages that it needs to, to successfully make it through? And, you know, designing the best you can with those things in mind. It is tough, I think, to design sometimes when there isn't great infrastructure. You can make something be completely technically recyclable, but if those other pieces are missing then it's the, the challenge. Not the technical design, but how do you support the infrastructure and the, I think that collaboration piece comes into it too, that we're talking about of how do we support the systems to work

Tom Pollock: 22:51

better. Yeah. What's the,

Cory Connors: 22:52

what's the point of making something recyclable if it's not gonna get recycled? Mm-hmm.. Well, I think you have to attempt it. You have to try. Right? You have to hope for the best sometimes., and then work on the other side of the coin, which is , availability and, mm-hmm. Yeah. The, those, yeah. We

Tom Pollock: 23:10

need

Dr. Ruth Maust: 23:10

movement on all of those fronts at the same time because Right. Things, sometimes people say, well, it's the collection that's holding us. um, From, you know, flexible packaging, recycling, but there are are countries that they do collect flexible packaging curbside, and they're still having challenges of actually then getting it sorted and processed. Like it's, it's not that any one piece by itself solves a problem. We kind of need all those areas to, to be working in

Tom Pollock: 23:33

tandem.

Cory Connors: 23:35

Excellent point. The store drop-off system has worked really well for companies like Trex Decking. Mm-hmm., they've recycled over a billion pounds of flexible films, and that's incredible to think about that they've turned it into building materials, you know, so That's awesome. I love that kind of a story. They've also recycled, I don't know how many, millions of pounds of wood so that, that alone, you know, those two things are just in incredible to me, so, mm-hmm.. You guys have an event coming up here in for the spc, the Sustainable Packaging Coalition in, in Austin in April, April 24th through 27th. Do you, do you wanna speak to that a little bit, Tom? And what, what can we expect there?

Tom Pollock: 24:15

Yeah. SPC Impact in Austin in April. You know, we've already you know, I guess the first thing I would say is if we haven't got your tickets yet you should because we've already sold I think 400 tickets to it and well members, you know, are, get their tickets. But we have 400 registrations, I should say. Already, and we're really looking at, you know, a range of different topics. I think what's really interesting about the SPC and the way that our team at, at Green, blue sets it up is there's a number of different tracks. So you know, we can start off with, if you're sort of looking at, you know, what are the essentials of, of learning about sustainable packaging. We can, you can start there. We'll be talking about Recyclability of, of plastics and molecular recycling. We'll be talking more about paper packaging, recyclability. So we've got a, a number of excellent speakers and panels. Lots of great tours. I think. I don't think we're going to you know, any Porsche museums , but there's going to be something I think lots of interesting things. I think they're actually gonna go check out the The Austin MLS teams stadium, which would be cool. So we've got a range of great tours. So I would you know, make sure you're register if you're an SPC member now at you know, sign up for those tours as soon as you can. So, yeah,

Cory Connors: 25:20

I'll be there for sure. Looking forward to that. Excellent. Good. Ruth, anything I, I didn't ask you that, that you

Tom Pollock: 25:26

wish I would've?

Dr. Ruth Maust: 25:27

I think we covered, we covered most of these topics pretty well. Yeah. Is there stuff that we have. Have mentioned that we could, could go into more depths. I think at one point, Tom, were you gonna maybe add something in about flexible packaging?

Tom Pollock: 25:39

Yeah, that's very perceptive. I think what I, if I go back to what I was gonna say is you know, a it's, it's really good that, that people like Ruth are working on this because understanding the science and the chemistry behind this is, is really key. I think, you know, we oftentimes go to, you know, what we think is the most. Recyclable solution, but, but that's not always the case. And with flexibles , a common denominator for a lot of companies is climate change and, and carbon accounting and You know, flexible packaging offers a lot of benefits in sort of the world of carbon. So Ruth was talking about trade offs. So something may or not be more recyclable, but it may or may not be, , heavier or require more materials or more energy to produce. So there's also that carbon part of the equation as well. So I think understanding flexibles and, and understanding the chemistry and the science behind it, and having folks that understand that really working on it in through a sustainability lens is, is really important. Thanks for asking. Ruth, appreciate. Yeah.

Dr. Ruth Maust: 26:36

Maybe something I'll add there is that I think it's important to keep challenging our assumptions about what sustainable packaging is. Mm-hmm., that looks like there's, you know, we have data on, on that to guide us, but I think there's always new research coming out and, you know, new test methods, new information. Maybe it's different than what we have assumed to be the case or that the consumer might assume, oh, this one looks eco-friendly and, , whatever that is. How do we challenge our assumptions about what sustainable packaging is, and then how do we share that information with, with the industry and with consumers?

Cory Connors: 27:16

Excellent point. And how do we continuously update that? Mm-hmm., because it, it seems to change weekly. I with the onset of extended producer responsibility and all these new materials that are coming out, this, this show and what you are doing in at the s SPC in green, blue is critical to education for not only the industry, but to consumer.

Tom Pollock: 27:38

I think Ruth summed up perfectly about challenging assumptions. I mean, in terms of, you know, the evidence of recyclability you hears,, this noise out there is working, blah, blah, blah. But if you look at the investments that are happening and you look at the news even just last week, and you Google about you know, who is investing into recyclability infrastructure, who's looking at these materials that are being recovered, the, these end markets are real. People are investing. Millions of dollars into collecting, sorting, reprocessing, and finding new materials, new, new packaging to put these materials into. So there's a lot of value there and there's a strong business case. So I think everyone, you know, working on these, these, these things together, pushing the innovation is, is really important. And it's, and it's really happening. It's not something that is pie in the sky. Mm-hmm.. Cory Connors: Yeah, well said. And with the, with the onset of scope one, scope two, scope three reporting, and all these new guidelines that are coming out, it's gonna be required. We're gonna have to figure it, right. Figure it out. So we might as well jump on it now and mm-hmm. and get a get ahead of it, right. So, absolutely. Well, thank you both. I appreciate your wisdom and looking forward to the next episode. We'll do another one of these or maybe if several more if, if Danielle and I can get it all figured out. I think we will if you're listening, make sure you subscribe so you don't miss the next episode. And stay tuned for more. Thank you. Thanks, Corey. Thanks Corey. Thanks, Ruth.