Microwave Popcorn PKG with no PFA's / Addie Teeters / Zack Leimkuehler / Ahlstrom

https://www.ahlstrom.com/

Do we need to look at our history to learn how to be sustainable? 
Did you know microwave popcorn had PFA's in the past? 
How can we work together to make packaging sustainable? 

It was a true honor to speak with Addie and Zack! 

Check out our sponsor Orora Packaging Solutions 
https://ororapackagingsolutions.com/

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https://www.linkedin.com/in/cory-connors/

I'm here to help you make your packaging more sustainable! Reach out today and I'll get back to you asap.

This podcast is an independent production and the podcast production is an original work of the author. All rights of ownership and reproduction are retained—copyright 2022.

Transcript

Cory Connors: 0:31

Welcome to Sustainable Packaging with Cory Connors. Today's guests, I have two amazing people in the world of packaging are from Ahlstrom. Very interesting company I'm excited to learn more about. But let's start with you, Zach. Will you introduce yourself to the audience?

Zack Leimkuehler: 0:45

Yeah. Uh, Zach Lyme Keller. I am the vice president of, of new business development for the company. Thanks for coming. And.

Addie Teeters: 0:51

Yes. I'm Addie Teeters. I'm head of marketing communications and public affairs based in North America, but I do a lot with our, with our global food packaging business. So we're, we're really excited to be here today. Thank you

Cory Connors: 1:03

so much. Which one of you wants to tell me what this company is and what you do,

Addie Teeters: 1:09

Well, I can get started and we'll, we'll let Zach fill in some of the gaps here, but Great. Ahlstrom is, is a global specialty paper manufacturer. We are, are headquartered in Helsinki, Finland, but we have a presence in about 14 different countries around the world and we manufacture specialty fiber-based solutions. From medical applications to industrial applications and a heavy concentration that we're gonna talk about today in, in food packaging and sustainable options for replacing traditional materials that maybe don't always have a positive end of life story. So really our goal in the world is to purify and. Materials, our customers materials in order to really make a better world. So everything that we're gonna talk about with you today is just, just putting our passion into purpose here.

Cory Connors: 1:56

That seems to be one of the biggest concerns of the industry right now is how do we package food? This is, this is hard to do this in a sustainable way. How do we make it out of materials that are more environmentally friendly or sustainable, as this podcast is called? Zach, anything else to add to.

Zack Leimkuehler: 2:16

Yeah, I think we, we approach sustainability from all corners, actually. But I think we start with a fundamental belief that, you know, paper is something that's inherently sustainable. There's a lot of benefits from it. And, and in our business, we, we have a. Pretty heavy technical presence in paper making. So we, we take that paper making platform and then we, we innovate, we, we, we bring new solutions to, to different applications and, and materials that then allow some of those applications to. To Addie's point change over to something that has a better end of life or has a better sustainable sustainability message behind it. So, you know, , we love to collaborate. We love to be part of the supply chain and we love to understand the problems specifically to what, you know, a brand owner or a customer is really trying to do. Cuz it allows us to then really dive in and, and take everything that we, that we can offer that paper itself can offer and, and start building that foundational platform for sustain.

Cory Connors: 3:14

Such a good point and talk about foundation. You guys are making the raw material that most of us other packaging companies are converting into packaging. So , what a critical step in the chain and let's talk about that a little bit more. So you're providing roles of paper to different kinds of companies that are making paper pouches and mailers and things like that. What I'm understanding.

Zack Leimkuehler: 3:39

Yeah, and I think , we are fairly far back in the supply chain, so we, we do, we. We are supplying roles of material that then always get to some level further converted. But I think what we're finding as , we continue to investigate and, and develop and innovate in the sustainability space, there's a lot of things that we can do in, in our position, in the supply chain to add a lot of value. So I think what we found with, you know, the movement towards more sustainable solution and sustainable innovation as a whole. Mm-hmm. The opportunity to kind of look at the supply chain completely back to, you know, a base, a paper supplier like us, we actually have the ability to make those changes or, or to bring in parts of the development that then create. Maybe even magnified effects down the supply chain. Or at least start in a place where you're preserving those options with every step down the supply chain. So, we like to understand and I think that's why collaboration is so important to us because Yeah, because of our position in the supply chain, it's really easy to just, Hey, we need this. Right. Well, there's a lot that can be done with that discussion. Understanding what the end goal is. Mm-hmm. and, and really I think the earlier in the supply chain, you can start to bring value., the more efficient that becomes and the, and the more in some, in some cases, economical that can be but always with that delivery of su sustainability as the goal. Yes,

Cory Connors: 5:04

absolutely. Well said. Such an important part of the discussion is at the very, very beginning, before we even start to design we need to say, okay, where are we going to source this material and this raw material? And what's the post-consumer recycle content going to be? Are you able to make high P c r.

Addie Teeters: 5:26

Yes, we, we not only have that ability you know, to infuse different post-consumer recycled material, we have the ability to sometimes incorporate recycled material that is f d a approved for direct food contact. So, wow. We do have, we have raw material sources that way, but truly our, our cis. Sustainable story starts with our sustainable forestry practices and, and the fact that we have those direct relationships with landowners and loggers and the fact that we are increasing the amount of growth and development in the forestry system across the globe. Than the industry has , for decades before that. So I think when, when you can have those conversations with us in the beginning about what you need, and going back to what Zach was talking to, not only can we figure out ways to infuse that sustainability benefit at the very beginning, but also then you're not potentially over-engineering what you need. So I think. That's another whole component of sustainability. The, the less engineering required, the less perhaps codings or additional converting that's, that's developed. If you can minimize that, you're reducing footprints all over the place. So having those conversations with us in the beginning is only going to help you achieve that more sustainable end product. That's an

Cory Connors: 6:41

important part of this whole discussion is the number of steps involved in the creation of packaging. And if you can start with a raw material that is stout enough to handle. One pass through a converting machine you know, instead of having to be more gentle with it or something, or having to laminate these materials together. That's a really good point, Addie. I hadn't thought of that. To, to design for the, the manufacturing process.

Zack Leimkuehler: 7:12

Well done. And I think, I think when we, when we look at that too, you know we have, we. Rich history of producing materials like this. Yeah. So that's one of the things we, we, we, we do as well, we go back to, we used to manufacture products before the age of some of these things that are viewed as less than sustainable today. Mm-hmm., so before plastics, before certain chemistry. So we can go back to that knowledge and understand how did that work in the past, what were the performance requirements there and how do we continue to change and bring modern pieces to that? Kind of continue that learning. But then again, I, to your point, Corey, making sure that we're looking at that overall sustainability and use. Kind of view of the product. And if there's more value we can add in our process and our converter can add in their process, we may take one, maybe two, maybe three steps out of a supply chain that not only create a sustainable benefit, but also create efficiency and, and all other, you know, kind of economic factors that the brand owners and the customers. And at the end of the day, consumers can benefit.. And I think you raised

Addie Teeters: 8:16

such an important point there, Zach, when you were talking about, just almost going back to the roots of what we know as paper makers or as innovators or manufacturers. I think what comes with innovation so often is the overthinking. Mm-hmm.. And, you know, I think a really good example where we have kind of gone back to our roots in sustainable packaging is with a proprietary floral free technology that we have created to reduce the use of pfas . In grease resistant materials and we, we kind of were the first in the industry to crack this code, and a lot of what we did was we went back to those roots. We used to make grease resistant food packaging papers decades and decades ago before these chemicals were even invented. And so by just going back to the roots of this art of paper making and the art of. of manufacturing. If you think about it, original manufacturing of goods just was inherently sustainable because mm-hmm. things weren't overthought or over-engineered. So I think innovation is fantastic and we need to continue to innovate as much as we can, but let's not overthink it and let's make sure we're just meeting the needs in, in the most sustainable way possible. And sometimes that means a simpler option.

Cory Connors: 9:27

Very, very good point and such an interesting thought., in this podcast we've talked many times about how we're going back to things that we used to do. We're going back to the milkman idea where we're reusable bottles for milk. It worked. Why did we mess with it? It was such a sustainable option and to have this process that was ingrained in our society. And you know, same thing with wine. You can have refillable wine bottles. Why not? Why, what are we doing? Why does it have to be single use and so to, to use paper and in a way that we used to do that was better than it is now. This, this is music to my ears. I love it. Can, can you guys think of a product out in the in the retail environment that maybe the listeners would know? That's

Zack Leimkuehler: 10:15

your. Yeah, I think, I think a, a really easy example and something that I think we've, we've spent a lot of time on is microwave popcorn. Oh, yeah.. So if, if you look at, you know, it's, it's something that, you know, everyone knows, everyone, you know, has a relationship with, it's, it's a, it's a big market in the United States for sure. Yeah. The performance that you needed for, you know, for that bag of, of basically melted butter to sit on a store shelf for months on end, and not leak. And I think what, what we've done over time, and it was something that I think we we're, we're very proud of, is there was a lot of people in the market saying, you can't do that without p FFA s and the chemistry that today is, is people are concerned about. And, and we were able to be part of that solution. And it's a really interesting dynamic of how that that came about globally because we were actually part of. Of a brand pulling, pulling product off their shelves and, and really creating a challenge to the industry to say, fix this, or we won't sell it. Good for them. And we were able to work with our customers and replace that in, in less than three months. So I think one of the, the really great things we've done over the years is we've been, we've been looking ahead and we've been watching what's going on and. Spending development time, spending resources to, to create technology, to create product platforms that we know will come. They, they're, they're coming in the future. And, and that, that foresight I think that we've had, has allowed us to continue, not just to have a product, but continue to have a platform that allows us to then say, you know, we could, we could make a, a French fry box or a, a burger wrap or a sandwich wrap. Without pfas, but when you get to the really, really hard things like, like microwave popcorn and now yeah, pet food, pet food bags, pet food is probably one of the most difficult applications from, from a grease resistance standpoint. But what that foresight has allowed us to do is spend the time continuing to tweak and turn and develop. For the niche applications that are really, really difficult, so that as the market's ready to switch, we're, we're right here waiting for, for the customers and allowing those changes to, to happen as customers, as brands, as the, the market moves.

Cory Connors: 12:20

It's exciting to hear and many, many break rooms around the country. Thank you for what you've done., every, a lot of people are, are big fans of Microwave pop. I, I see why it's Sure. Smells good and it tastes good. Addie you mentioned from plastic to purpose. I don't know if that was on intentional or not, but I would love to hear about this campaign and what, what you've.

Addie Teeters: 12:41

Well, I think the industry as a whole, you've, I mean, I think for the last several years we've all heard the catchphrase war on plastic. Yeah. And, you know, plastic has a place in the, in the world. And, and so we decided as a fiber-based sustainable industry, we were not going to necessarily be waging war on plastic. But instead we wanted it to work collaboratively with our customers and with brand owners to say, , if you're looking to make a switch, if you want to have a fiber-based solution mm-hmm., we can not only help you with that, but let's make sure we're imparting more purpose in that final package. And there's so many ways to do that. It's not just a replacement swap of a plastic structure to a paper structure because they're not going to behave the same. So we need to ask the questions of, can we perhaps do lightweighting so that maybe you're reducing your footprint in logistics? Can. Ensure that we are working directly with our sustainable forestry folks so that you know, you are procuring wood from a very regional wood basket and then that's reducing footprint. Perhaps you would like a natural product as opposed to a bleach product, less chemicals. There's so many different ways to impart additional sustainability or what we like to refer. Purpose in that end use package. So for us, we are just trying to say it's not just a replacement of plastic paper. You really are trying to achieve more and more sustainable solutions. Purposefully as opposed to just a swap. So it's given us obviously a way to, you know, to promote that message into the marketplace and do a bit of education. But I think internally it's also expanded our brains and challenged us as well to say, okay, we, we're not gonna just settle for the one simple solution. We're gonna continuously try to dig and find ways that, that we can. This base paper solution even better so that our converters and brand owners have a truly sustainable piece that they're proud of at, at the end of, of the supply chain. It

Cory Connors: 15:17

sounds like you're not waiting around for customers to come up with ideas. How are you inventing these new ideas? You have a, a group of

Zack Leimkuehler: 15:24

engineer. Yeah, so, so we have again, we're, we're a global, a global company with a, with a global r and d platform. I would say r and d is, is very core to the d n a of our, of our company as a whole. We have, we have. Two, two r and d plants in located in France that I would say are as good as any r and d site you will find in the paper industry for sure. And I would argue in, in, in a lot of industries a really core building block setup of technologies and, and capabilities that are within our facilities that we can then use to, to. To tweak and turn and build these new products. But we also take, I would say, our, our very hands on. So we, our business kind of platform is, is application specific. And we have resources in, in all of our geographies, in all of our plants that really, really understand what are we, what is this product being used for? So is this, is this., something goes into microwave popcorn because it's not just about grease resistance, it's how does it fold, how does it print, right? How does it receive adhesive? There's, there's all these parts to it that, that complicate, you know, the, the, the simple problem at the end of the year trying to solve. So using that, that combination of really deep application understanding and business, you know, integration with our customers. As well as that added r and d, you know, research driven pipeline of, of materials that we can start to pull and play with and look at differently. It, it really is unique for us and I think has set us apart in, in the recent past of, of having those tools to our advantage. And I think as we, as we look at plastic purpose one of the core parts we're, we're really trying to solve is, is how do you make paper have the same performance barrier? Properties as many, many films do. And, and that is a, a really, really good synergy of that application, understanding that deep historical rooted in our capabilities knowledge with these modern, new, new materials that are coming into play. And, and different approaches that we can combine to kind of take the best of both historical hands-on knowledge with, with new technology. And I think it, it sets us up to have some pretty exciting developments.

Cory Connors: 17:39

That does sound exciting. Do you and Addie you can maybe take start with this one. Are there any trends in the world of sustainable packaging that are exciting to you and, and your company. Addie Teeters: Oh, you might have to hold me back here, but I love it. Yeah, bring them on., one

Addie Teeters: 17:54

of, one of the most exciting trends in, in an area where I'm already starting to see us make an impact is using existing manufacturing lines and making this swap. So yeah, we have, we've been able to, Perhaps crack the code a little bit on where traditional films wraps you know, non-recyclable substrates could be replaced with a 100% cellulose fiber-based solution, and it actually can run on that existing manufacturing equipment. Mm-hmm. So for us, that that not only allows us to help the end user, that brand owner to, you know, develop what do they need for a positive end of life package. But it really does truly help our, our converting partners as well. I mean, we're, as in, you know, as a globe, we're, we are starting to potentially see some, you know, recession times and the coming year. And we all need to be smart with our manufacturing practices and with the equipment, the existing equipment that we have. Ok. So when I start to see these trends come forward, and I get excited to think if, if we can not only develop the positive end of life for the brand owner, but we actually can work with our converting partners to run our substrates on their existing equipment and really work with them to do that. Yeah. To me that's, that's actually reducing the footprint in itself. You know, because we're not, we're not inventing having to force ourselves to invent new equipment just to run a new sustainable product

Cory Connors: 19:16

that we're not even sure it would. You know that to test it, right? I, I remember at the, the last Sustainable Packaging Coalition event, they were talking about the exact same thing how they had to invest 50 million in a new machine to run some new pouches, and it wasn't even working yet. They're still, you know, they're still figuring that out. So these massive investments are being made and we're thankful for that. But I, I really like this mindset a lot more of, Hey, let's make this substrate work on the machine. We. And let's figure that out. Now, that's, now we're talking about sustainability. I like.

Zack Leimkuehler: 19:53

and I, I think we, we also, you know, obviously we've seen the, the movement of the end of life. You know, I think that's where Paper has a, a really good story. And, and again, I think what's been really exciting and interesting for us is we've, we've learned, I would say in the last four or five years, we've really learned about, okay. what does this require? How do we, how do we design for compostability? How do we design for recyclability? And I think now there's a lot of industry movement and, and there's a lot of discussion around that. And I think what's, what's also exciting for us is I, I would say we've, we've taken a different approach in a lot of these, in a lot of these conversations. We lend our expertise. We don't, we don't, we don't sit in a, in a discussion and tell someone that we don't think they're right or we don't think, they have the right solution., we really try to work and say, okay, this is what you're trying to do. Here's the way you can get there. You know, we did, we've, we've. Really had a lot of fun Addie and I over the last few years with, with the NGO community, with all kinds of different, I would say counterparts and teammates that, that are somewhat unique to, to our position in the industry. And I think it's really, it's really exciting because as these market dynamics shift, as these requirements shift, We're in a position where we're learning a lot and we're sharing our knowledge and it's, it's almost like open innovation. It's almost like we're, we're all in pulling the rope the same direction. And I think that's why we, we talk so much about collaboration and that that ability to kind of let, let our guards down, obviously everyone's to protect their i p e and everyone wants to make sure you, you have a business case and that's important, but. Allowing everybody to sit at the table and really be open to say, this is what I'm trying to do. Here's the, here's the piece I can control, here's the piece you can control. And if we all do it together, it, I think we're in that environment right now where it, it's, it's, it's super exciting. I think from our position to say whatever that market trend is, whatever that end of life requirement is, carbon footprint even. How, how do we all sit at that table and have a discussion and, and finding our. The ability to be at the table lends a lot of value to that whole supply chain. I think so. It, it's a really exciting time to be a, a paper nerd for us. I'm, I mean, , we are that way. I mean, and, and it's, it's just an opportunity to, to have that play a, a role and have a really good, really, really positive long-term future in, in packaging.

Cory Connors: 22:10

I absolutely agree with what you're saying. It's an amazing time to be a, a, a packaging nerd. I never thought it would be as valuable as it has been for, for people like the three of us and, and the most of the people I've interviewed on this podcast we're, we're making major impacts on the world. With this knowledge that we've had in our brains for a long time. And it's it's nice to see people actually taking all of this very seriously. And we're gonna see more and more laws that say, well, you can't do it that way anymore. Mm-hmm., figure it out, or you're done. And it's exciting to see companies preparing for that by moving to more sustainable.

Addie Teeters: 22:52

Well, and I think it's important. You, you raised a really good point, Corey, that as some of those regulations are being evolved or what, what, you know, as some of those the legislative bodies are considering enough, is enough, we have to start doing something different in terms of our waste streams. Make sure to engage the manufacturers. Because you want to make sure that we rightsize the regulation so that you're not regulating yourselves potentially out of all of your sustainable packaging streams. So I think that like, you know, when Zach said we were talking to the N G O community, that that's part of the reason why we do that. Because we want to be able to help those folks so passionate about it get to. Place, but there's a way to do it so that you're not completely regulating yourselves out of an entire packaging solution. So I think there's a way we can all work together to achieve the same goal.

Cory Connors: 23:42

Very, very true. We have to take a look at it holistically before we start making these laws and changes, because if we're not ready to replace the. The quote unquote unsustainable or less sustainable packaging. Well, we better pump the brakes a little bit here because there's nothing sustainable about rotten food and, and, and starving people. That's not, that's not cool.

Addie Teeters: 24:06

So, exactly. You need to take a look at it, at the, at the holistic approach. Right, right, right.

Cory Connors: 24:11

Well, this has been great. Any hilarious stories or jokes you wanna tell before we're done?? Addie Teeters: No. I be super paper nerdy, right?? Zack Leimkuehler: Yeah. Yeah. We always have that. I think one of the things that I always like to share though, and it's his perspective, is, is I think when we're doing this work, one of the things that as a, as a, as a person of passion in this, in this, in this arena, A technical person too. Mm-hmm.. It's, it's how many times that aesthetics and, and, and the actual change can disrupt that innovation. So I always, anytime I have the chance to kind of remind people that, just cuz we're doing something different, sometimes you don't, you can't expect it to look and feel exact the same. And sometimes that could be used to your advantage, right? Mm-hmm. and I think mm-hmm., we, we've seen in. in the last five years, lots of developments get, get, you know, shelved because, well, it just doesn't look right. Well, I mm-hmm., you know, I think there's a lot of things that are gonna change the way they look in the near future and, and that ability to be open. And some of the, you know, some of the brands and customers we work with, they embrace that and they go, yeah, that's great. We want it to look different. We wanna show that we're making a movement. Now we're trying something new. But I think it's one of those things, man, it's, it's, it, nothing, nothing kills a, a paper nerd or an innovator more than seeing something stall because it just doesn't look the same. So yeah, I think it's just a, maybe not a funny story, but it's a painful learning that I think we've continued to bridge and another reason why we can, we can try to talk about those options and make sure we're, we're all on the same.

Addie Teeters: 25:39

Yeah, if you change it, if you change a chip bag from a film structure to a paper structure and you try to open it you're not gonna be able to sneak that midnight snack, perhaps quite as easily. It might be a, it might be a little more noisy, but yeah, guess what? You're gonna be able to put that in a bin in the appropriate way. So yeah, it's, we as consumers, you know, it's really on the consumers as well. We have to get more comfortable with the different packaging. We have to get more comfortable with putting them in the correct bins and. We, we have to push our favorite brands to consider these options. So

Cory Connors: 26:12

important that you mentioned that. Thank you. It's what I'm seeing that makes me the happiest is when brands say, hey. Yeah, we know this packaging is brown, or we know it's gray. Be where, where it used to be white or a different color. The reason it is, is because we have this high PCR content or we're using a different material, you're welcome. So let's, let's embrace this as a marketing tool rather than. Oh, we're sorry, consumer for having a different packaging, you know when I think we should be celebrating these. Yes. You know, even if they're quote unquote ugly ducklings in the, in the, in the bin you know, let's let's celebrate these differences and changes that we're making for the

Addie Teeters: 26:57

planet. Well, we're grateful for you, Corey, to bringing up this, this, all of this education for folks because it's important messages to get out there. And quite frankly, this is one of the major ways that we can start to make some impacts on the future. I know we're all, we're all concerned about, about the world right now and kind of what are we leaving behind to our, the next generations and this is one way we can start to control it. Exactly.

Cory Connors: 27:21

Well said. Great way to end it. Thank you. Add . Brilliant. How do we get in touch with you?

Addie Teeters: 27:27

Well, you can find find both Zach and I, our LinkedIn profiles are, are open and active. So please try to reach out to us on LinkedIn. Otherwise you can find us@alstrom.com and that our, our website has just a wealth of information in terms of some position papers we've released on these topics our product portfolio. And we just really encourage people to find us and bring us your ideas, even if they might seem a little unique. We're the, the more challenging, the better for us.

Zack Leimkuehler: 27:53

Yeah, exactly.

Cory Connors: 27:54

I love that. Do you guys work with students at all in your innovat? You

Zack Leimkuehler: 27:59

we have, and we've done it in a variety of ways. We engage with the academic community quite, quite heavily in research at times. And even locally here, we're both Eddie and I are based in the state of Wisconsin a local university. We, we partnered with our sustainability program and, and had an active project that we brought, we did we did some tours of our facilit. And actually went down and, and did some work with them too. So, yeah. Anytime we can, because I think it, one, it gives us a, it gives us some awareness, you know, some, some awareness in the industry and in the local community of what we're doing. But also those are future paper makers if we can make'em or package engineers. Right, right, right. Get 'em excited about those things. Those true. And we never know. We never know where, what we could learn. So we're always open to learn and understand where, where something in our backyard might, might actually have some, some good business value to it. Is that uw? Uw, UW Ash Dash is the closest one. That's where we, we've worked with their program and they're very close. They're 20 miles away from us, so they're, they're easy.

Cory Connors: 28:54

I know UW Stout has a good packaging school. They do. That's why they do. I

Zack Leimkuehler: 28:59

I mentioned that. Yeah. I'm, I'm a little, I'm a little loyal to UW Steven's Point, cuz it's a paper school, so I gotta talk about that.

Cory Connors: 29:06

I I support all, all schools.. I'm a Oregon State Beaver fan myself. They're, oh, they had a really

Addie Teeters: 29:14

good, it's tough to beat that. Yeah. Good

Cory Connors: 29:15

year. Yeah. Well, thank you both and really appreciate this. Thank you Landsberg Orora, for sponsoring this podcast. If you're listening, make sure you subscribe so you don't miss the next episode, and keep in touch.