Replace Single Use Plastic / Pulpac / Sanna Fager CCO and Sebastian Roos CTO

https://www.pulpac.com/
info@pulpac.com 
https://www.linkedin.com/in/sanna-fager-a895294b/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/sebastianroos/

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Transcript

Cory Connors: 0:31

Welcome to sustainable packaging with Cory Connors today's guests come all the way from Sweden. I've got Sanna Fager . Who's the CCO and Sebastian Roos . Who's the CTO of Pulpac . Hey guys, how are ya?

Sanna Fager: 0:45

Hi,

Sebastian Roos: 0:50

how are you

Cory Connors: 0:51

really great. I appreciate you both taking some time. I'm excited to talk about what you guys have to offer. It's a very unique kind of packaging and very sustainable alternative. And let's just start with how'd you get into the packaging business. Sanna. Sanna Fager: Yeah, of course. Thank you first. I mean, we have very glad to be here and to have the opportunity to talk to you. So I think we have a, both. Different way of entering into the packaging world. My basically background is in mechanical engineering and been working with disruptive technologies of manufacturing previously, but it's quite real to the packaging world. I was saying the being, working for pullback for three years some learning all of all the time, I would say what, what actually a really big world is, is. Much inference as the packaging have for product and for the whole sustainability now.

Sebastian Roos: 1:47

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I'm more or less. I stumbled in the packaging industry with Pulpac. I would say I'm also a mechanical company before, and then we can have. Stumble on this, this innovation and so on. And that is fair up roughly seven years ago and been here since the beginning of co-pack. So it's not a very, very old company, but still we're not beginners either. So was somewhere in between, I guess.

Cory Connors: 2:13

That's a fun part of a company to watch it really start to grow quickly. And I was really impressed with what you guys offer, but would one of you like to kind of explain what pull pack is and, and, and what.

Sebastian Roos: 2:25

Yeah, sure. I mean, first of all, Pulpac is that is our company and more or less, we work with one thing, which is a dry molded fibers. Cause that's kind of what it was actually what it is. It's a, it's a manufacturing process. That we that we develop to to actually make different parts. And that process is actually able to to handle a lot of different materials, a lot of different additives and form that into a lot of different things, as it's hard to answer it with with being short. But so, so that is kind of what we are and what we do and, and kind of how we offer it might be something that that you can dive into. Yeah,

Sanna Fager: 3:04

exactly. So, I mean, that is what Pulpac is doing is the core rendering doing R and D on prime, only fiber, which is a Sebastien semester manufacturing technology. And to do that and to introduce a new technology into the world, you of course need to do. As we saw this fit for a lot of different things, also in new scheme. So what we are doing is developing the technology here and enabling that to everyone that would like to use the technology by licensing. So the business model of Pulpac is that we are licensing the technology to mainly, I would say convert as I would like to produce parts. I mean, the packaging or assist the. Single use items, all these kind of things that you today are looking into producing fiber to replace some of the plants.

Sebastian Roos: 3:55

Again, with the ad. I mean, it's, it's also part of the say the strategy that we have had since day one to actually try to grow this technology and this offer as fast as we can. And we haven't seen that. I mean, if we were to be in, in a position of manufacturing and in all products perhaps we can be, you know build a business around that. But again, I think we will constantly be the limiting factor to actually do this at scale. So that's kind of why we're offering this on the licensing base and also together with a lot of partners around us enabling our customers to actually do this. Both from a material point of view and machinery point of view and tooling, et cetera, to kind of cater the whole network to our customers, to actually make the change quite fast. That's kind of what, we're what we're all about. So I would say, yeah.

Cory Connors: 4:51

So most of the time, that's excellent. Most of the time, when you think about molded pulp, you think about what we would call a wet molded Pope. And that, that requires a lot of water. It requires it's, it's, I've been told it's very smelly not so pleasant to be around but a very environmentally friendly alternative to thermal form plastics. When I saw your. Innovation. I thought, wow, this is the next step. Can you tell us a little bit about the technology? How does the paper hold its shape when it's formed without water?

Sanna Fager: 5:26

I mean, I would say that groundbreaking thing here, basically, as he said, to remove the water from the forming. So what we are doing is more or less using air as the carrier of the fiber. So instead of water to doing everything. Basically, I'm also using both exquisite existing materials that are available on readings. So what we are doing more or less is starting for me, generic available material, a globally available. Shred the fibers apart, more or less to create the duck tile web. Basically it would met mechanically in time with fibers, and that is the transporter, the free fibers transported by air. Again, instead of water. And then I must have basically molding the pressure and on, in between, we can then add the different additives. So barriers, depending again, on the concept of what kind of product you are doing.

Sebastian Roos: 6:32

A bit about how I kind of, it holds its shape. Cause we actually, once we, whilst we molded with, as I said, heat and pressure we actually reading, we actually gain the hydrogen bond and bonding again. They kind of had from the beginning and to be able to do that, we also need some kind of moisture into the into the the web itself. But it's not that so that it's no, it's still dry to the touch, et cetera. I mean, if we completely remove all the moisture, you won't get much of a product out. So that's also a balance in the process.

Sanna Fager: 7:05

I mean the most, the best selling insensitives of business speed, I would say is we don't have to get rid of any moister more or less, or any excessive water. We can be forced. I mean, working with cycle time was three and a half seconds, more or less. And then it's depending on what kind of press you're using, what kind of products you're using. That's still the speed and the output that you can get from one single machine is more or less, same way. If you compare to a thermal forming more or less. Yeah.

Cory Connors: 7:40

Well, that's really exciting. Cause I know with wet molded pulp the dry time can be a days or sometimes weeks depending on the environment. That's, that's a huge advancement. Well then,

Sebastian Roos: 7:52

and it's also a big advancements when it comes to energy usage. Because again, what you, what do you do when you introduce water with the aim to actually have a physical, physically stable product at the end? Is that, I mean, you physically has to have to get rid of all that water and that is more or less drying or weights or both. So I think that's also one factor that'd be kind of that we believe strongly. And I mean, both from a cost perspective, but also energy is something that at this we foresee being a much more. Franchised resource SB, you know entry into the next decade or so, where we, where we need to be a lot more sensitive about how much energy we actually use to recruit, to produce things. Just also from that perspective, I think that there's this really interesting, interesting.

Cory Connors: 8:39

That's such a great point. Oftentimes sustainability, you just think about, well, is it recyclable? Well there's so many more aspects to it, including energy usage, water consumption. And we could go on and on and on

Sebastian Roos: 8:52

transportation.

Cory Connors: 8:54

Oh yeah,

Sanna Fager: 8:57

because I would say that there is also, I mean, an important point of looking at. From a sustainability perspective that we also then enables a local production. So I mean the plastic converter, for example, they are all around the board today and then should, they should be. Producing the packaging where it's actually used in the same sense that it is more or less today, avoid shipping and also to avoid, I mean, to make sure that you can use locally sourced material as much as possible or raw material. And then once I have the production where you actually will use the product,

Cory Connors: 9:39

have you seen some form and that's an excellent point w we need to avoid shipping. Anyway, we can to improve sustainability. Have you seen some molded plastic manufacturers switching over to molded fiber?

Sanna Fager: 9:57

Yeah. I mean, I would say the, the most interest we are having is from plastic converters that are today from a former or inefficient molders and know that they need to shift. I mean, they need to do something else and move into fiber. And then I think, I mean, again, from a lot of the conversations that we are having, that feels like this is all the kind of production method that you then. You, you understand that in some sense, it's quite actually, when you're looking at the machine there, it's quite similar to the thermoforming machinery and it's, again, you can use the same spaces that you already have, and you can use the minutes, of course, a new supply chain for fibers. There is a new things when it comes to barrier fibrous, but still it's something that you can grow. And this is something as well that we within PillPack would like to help, to ease as much as possible with the word the R and D that we are doing to this technology. I mean, as we said in the beginning, we are doing R and D on the methods, the methods of lanolin fiber, but still of course, Everything around that, that they know that our customers or our converter, again, that would like to adopt this technology that they need to have answers on when it comes to what kind of cyber should use, how should we decide? How is the machinery that I need to use? And even though. Selling machines. Of course, we need to have a good supply chain with partners that can help out the store to build up the machine back to their side again, to make the transition from something else into drive on the fibers. Easiest possible. I would say.

Sebastian Roos: 11:47

That's excellent. I can also add something from a, also from a product perspective, which we have seen that at least from a, I mean, since we began to mold things to them, what was that is done? I mean, the part is stable. It's easier, easier to pick up. And so it's, it's kind of ready to be stepped off, but also from a product, a would you call it product geometry kind of standpoint? We can also. Say plastic products to to some shapes and some features. So for instance, I mean, DNS thing features, undercuts, hinges, these kinds of things that you typically would see in thermal form products in plastics today, we can, we can actually mimic, those were very similar. So a lot of the say, alright, if our, our customers are the convert converters, Their customers have, you know, a ton of equipment when it comes to the stackers and the nesting placing all kinds of things. And as much that we can do offer a same similar kind of products, we'll be going in the same filling lies. The same kind of equipment used as possible. It's also a big a big plus for for us to be able to cater to our customers because they can very easily sell this into brand owners, et cetera, that actually have established equipment established processes in general. So that's also something that we work very closely to actually being able to have. The gaps should be assessed as low as possible, more or less to switch from a plastic part to a fiber bar. As long as you have the same kind of at least product requirements, kind of fill up on us.

Cory Connors: 13:24

That's amazing. Could, could it, could they possibly retrofit a thermal. Machine into a molding machine. I

Sebastian Roos: 13:36

wouldn't say, not for our customers, so not the production equipment. So that is kind of special for us, but the, but the next, the next level, when you talk to about, say a filling line for a for a product, whether it's, you know, ice cream or, or a couplet or something, and that's kind of quite easy to do to fill in products at that stage, more or less to just. Again, since we can't get in, since we can do all of these features that you can do in terms of and plastics. So that's why I also think it's quite good for say for our customers who are in the plastic industry today. I mean, because again, we have, we have interesting the already established molded fiber space as well. And again, I mean, that, that would be for something additional. I mean, they already do molded fiber parts. I mean, for us. Key thing to get rid of plastics model. So, I mean, that's obviously great, but I mean, even for those customers to ours, that we can offer something different, whether it's a new product that you cannot be to do in what for for different reasons. So there's also ways for us to attract interest from the, from the mobile help industry as well. But the, the step is a bit easier for us for the past. I would say there. Established and the and the production process is quite similar. To be honest,

Cory Connors: 15:28

it's a, it's an exciting technology and very, very innovative. Where does most of the material come from? Is it a post-consumer or post-industrial waste?

Sanna Fager: 15:42

I would say the Cleo often working with that. Virgin material that is, I mean, globally available as standard material, more or less due to the demands that you have on this kind of product that should go in, in food contact. But then of course, I mean, Are often driving towards is to make sure that we are designing for cyclability. I mean the product that are we are, or our customers are producing will go into the recycling bin to make sure that we can use the fibers again to where you can actually introduce content, but from all. Technology point of view. I mean, we can use a lot of different materials. Let's say we have to sit with a lot of different materials. So that is more depending on the requirement that you have with. Type of products that we are looking into today or that our customers have focused on today.

Sebastian Roos: 16:42

And I will also say that it's a, it's a supply chain Mandarin as well, because again, for us where we are at this stage, we are. Very much about, you know, creating sustainable supply chains for our customers that they know that they can be supplied with the same type of material, the same grade, et cetera. At least for us to be able to offer that then if, if our customers. Established supply chains or partners themselves to actually offer some kind of material. So for instance, I mean yes, much of the products that we kind of focus on today are say some kind of food contact items, but a lot of, you know, plastic parts aren't I mean packaging for whatever batteries or light bulbs or, or or something else. That is more or less, you know, finding a good supplier that actually can sit by you both with post-consumer or post-industrial or whatever you can get hold of, because again, the process can handle these kinds of materials. So it's about for us to create, you know, the biggest impact with that. We can, from a supply point of view, to have something ready to go. As a concept. And then if you, how our customers you know, progress from there. I think that's something that we want to promote. I mean, both for from a supply chain point of view in the automakers or or for our customers, you know, to search for these things themselves.

Cory Connors: 18:03

That's really excellent. So you could use. Mostly post-consumer or post-industrial material, if it wasn't food contact.

Sebastian Roos: 18:12

Yeah. As long as it's cellulose based, I would say that's kind of the primary, primary goal.

Cory Connors: 18:19

Excellent. Have you tested out hemp fiber?

Sebastian Roos: 18:25

No, not to that degree. Then we can say that we have at least, you know, a very functional samples. Then we have done, you know, some tests with blends of different things. And as the, I mean, as a proof of concept, these are things, but I would say. Adding onto the previous question when, when we can see that, okay, now we say establishment and supply chains for the same materials for food contact, we can kind of work into the other space. So that's kind of how we will work as well, because we have done some, some artists see, again, this will actually work out. But again, to take that all the way into, into production is something that we, you will continuously look at. I would say.

Sanna Fager: 19:06

The beauty of the licensing model in some sense, and what we do. And all continuously doing ethical is to push the boundaries for the technology to give the learnings continuously to our customers or our licensee to make sure that again, we can see what is market ready. We can start with or recommend them to start with today. And they'll on the side. We will continuously push the technology and then transfer all the knowledge continuously to our license. Again too. I mean, start somewhere and develop from there.

Cory Connors: 19:44

That's really cool. Is a, is it also compostable?

Sanna Fager: 19:49

I mean from a, from a raw material perspective, it's only cellulose. So yes. Then again, it's of course going into fiber products or fiber packaging, you need to ask, what is the concept? What is the product product requirement? And that is of course, make sure that you are, or the product, the requirement to keep the product as sustainable as possible. And then of course it's, depending on if you design for compostability or for recyclability, that could be different answers to that question. But again, looking at keeping the products as sustainable as possible, we'll always be there. Go with. So, and to map out a little bit further on that, when you said that they can mimic the plastic one to one, when it comes to, I mean, again, their functionality or diagnostic feature, that is one thing. But what we would like was that you have to demand from our clients is also to say that can we shout? And she doesn't scope of where the product is when it comes to functionality on barrier properly. For example, not changing one to one, but rather rethink what a product. I mean, I think coffee is for example, a good example where you see the mean today, the conflict last forever, because it's an over-engineered material. In some sense, we know that you are using your conflict for maximum, for. So we decide on a product that you'd love for four hours, if it gets soft or anything like that, that's the only good for biodegradability or recyclability. Right? That is again, looking at the concept of C how do we develop the right product, not just changing one to one or having so again, rethink as well where the product is, this important that we say to keep it sustainable.

Cory Connors: 21:54

Definitely. Do you have a favorite memory or a favorite project that you guys worked on that really sticks out in your head? Like this one was really impactful or this one surprised me that it worked.

Sebastian Roos: 22:11

Okay. Okay. But I want, and it's kind of the it's kind of what we started with as well. We did more or less the stuff first product that we that we did was. I think also, I mean, first of all, it was very challenging product to start with. I would say, I mean, from a, to actually have it as a winter coat or something, you know, from that perspective, but it also raised a lot of what do you call it? I mean, we had the chance to look into an industry of, you know, hangers, which I thought, you know, We used, et cetera, but I mean, that is a really dark place when it comes to I mean that you produce hangers in one part of the world, you ship it to another and then even more or less burned too expensive to recycle it or to send it back and so on to some degree. So I would say that's for me, kind of an eye-opener and if that was the first case we actually looked at, I guess there are. Hundreds of these examples where you saw easy can actually make a change to go into different recycle streams, go into different, you know, change or we use and these kind of things. So just as a first point of view, as an engineer, okay. Look at this part and it's great, you know but from a. So we're seeing as supply and recycled perspective. That's, what's kind of the, eye-opener at least for me of how big things you actually can change by just changing the material more or less. That one, at least for me, that's a big one.

Cory Connors: 23:35

That's exciting. And you're right. The hangar industry of the hanger situation, if you will, is something often brought up in sustainable, conversations with the fashion industry. I love on your website, how it just says replace single use plastic and. Boom. That's that's the,

Sebastian Roos: 23:57

yeah. And again, to me, I hang there, shouldn't be a single use, you know? Because again, it's, it's a very good pride obviously, but, but again, it's, it is use it it's like that with a lot of things that actually, I mean, either you, yeah, you reuse it or make some kind of use system that, or you're making it in the material. That's easy to.

Cory Connors: 24:17

That's the key, right? We got to look at this stuff differently and, and take a step back and say, wow, that how many millions of hangers are we shipping every year? Or billions? I don't even know if we could, if those could all be paper and we could, if we could use them twice and then recycle them imagine the difference that would make for the world. That's incredible to think about. Yeah.

Sanna Fager: 24:40

And I would say from my end, when it comes to. Moments or memories, I would say it's, that's where having that all the time. But in some sense, we have a lot of interest of course, in our technology. And when you are doing now, it's one thing to talk about the technology and you has to say, you can understand it from a theoretical point of view, but all the time when. Clients here. Then I was standing in front of the Bauer, still quite new, a production machine that is just spitting out product. And you can read it nearly see exactly when the. When they get it, what's it's all about then when you actually see the speed, that is something all the time. I get little bit healing, basically, this, this, seeing that the production with the machine on my website, speaking, spitting out their products because it's also, as I said, I mean, we started four years ago, basically first the invention and then all the way to. Really dedicated team coming in to develop a production machine of course, together with suppliers here, but there were things every thought more or less it's thought here within our tech center, not the bar. And that is amazing standing in front of that machine and knowing that we can, in some sense change of the world with this with this machine and the partnership that they're building around that technology.

Cory Connors: 26:20

Oh, congratulations. And this is, this is a product that I could definitely see taking off and revolutionizing a lot of different industries. How do people get in touch with you , to talk about a new project?

Sanna Fager: 26:36

I mean, we are a, I would say spend, I mean reach out on our LinkedIn page or send an email to info, cold pack.com. I think that's that's the easiest way to get in contact with us and we would then connect through those to start the conversation, what we can do together. And again, I think that's, if you did something that they are welcoming both. I mean, everyone needs the supply chain from materials suppliers to a machine builders or to again, plastic or fiber workers and brand owners to engage and to be a part of this.

Cory Connors: 27:16

Yeah, that's it replace single use plastic. That's it? That's the mic drop. Well done and keep up the good work. We appreciate what you're doing from the sustainable packaging community. And I'd like to thank Landsberg Orora for sponsoring this episode. We appreciate your support. If you're listening, take a minute to review and make sure you subscribe. So you don't miss the next episode. Thank you all. Really appreciate your Sanna and Sebastian.

Sanna Fager: 27:41

Yeah, thank you for having us. Thank you.