Why "More Sustainable" Isn't a Simple Answer | Lara Botta

In this episode, Cory Connors reconnects with Lara Botta, Vice President of Bota Eco Packaging, joining from Italy. They discuss the intricacies of new sustainability regulations and the paperwork burden they place on consumers and companies alike, and how Lara's team works to make compliance as simple as possible. Lara shares how Bota Eco Packaging, founded by her grandmother in 1947, has stayed ahead of European recyclability standards for decades, and how the company's innovation practices since 2017 have positioned it as a trusted resource for finding new, more sustainable materials. They also cover Italy's economic and energy challenges, the shift from purpose-driven to regulation-driven sustainability, the difficulty of convincing procurement teams that sustainable materials can be cost-effective, and Lara's role as an ambassador at the upcoming Sustainable Packaging Summit in Utrecht, where she'll moderate a panel on the controversial "paperization" trend.

Key Topics Discussed:

• Lara's grandmother founding Bota Eco Packaging in 1947 and selling paper packaging around Milan by tramway
• The company's evolution from corrugated cardboard into a sustainable packaging innovation leader since 2017
• Why Italy and Europe have led the way on recyclability and packaging regulation
• Current market conditions in Italy: energy prices, geopolitics, and slow growth
• The shift from purpose-driven sustainability to regulation-driven compliance
• Reframing "cost" conversations with procurement teams around total cost of ownership
• Being named an ambassador for the Sustainable Packaging Summit in Utrecht
• Moderating a panel on "paperization" and why it's a trending but controversial topic
• Consumer decision-making, System 1 vs. System 2 thinking, and sustainable purchasing behavior
• Generational differences in sustainability expectations
• Advice for attendees heading to the Sustainable Packaging Summit in Utrecht

Chapters:

00:00 Introduction and Welcome
01:30 The Complexity of New Sustainability Regulations and Consumer Paperwork Fatigue
03:15 Lara's Grandmother and the Founding of Bota Eco Packaging in 1947
06:00 From Corrugated Cardboard to Sustainable Innovation Since 2017
09:30 Why Italy and Europe Have Led on Recyclability and Regulation
12:15 Current Market Conditions in Italy: Energy, Geopolitics, and Growth
15:00 Regulation vs. Purpose: How the Push for Sustainability Has Shifted
18:00 Total Cost of Ownership and Changing the Conversation with Procurement
21:00 Becoming an Ambassador for the Sustainable Packaging Summit in Utrecht
23:15 Moderating the "Paperization" Panel: A Trending but Controversial Topic
26:00 Consumer Perception, Decision-Making, and System 1 vs. System 2 Thinking
29:00 Generational Differences in Sustainability Expectations
31:30 Advice for Attendees Heading to Utrecht
33:00 Final Thoughts and How to Connect

Resources Mentioned:

• Bota Eco Packaging
• Sustainable Packaging Summit, Utrecht (10-12 November 2026)
• Packaging Europe (magazine referenced by Lara as a key industry resource)

Contact:

Listeners interested in connecting with Lara Botta can reach out via her website or LinkedIn.
-Website
- LinkedIn (company): Bota EcoPackaging

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https://www.linkedin.com/in/cory-connors/

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This podcast is an independent production and the podcast production is an original work of the author. All rights of ownership and reproduction are retained—copyright 2022.

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And as the difficulties arise, all these new regulations that are coming up and it's really intricate. You and I know how intricate it is and how much the consumers are. are getting anxious about all this paperwork that is required. They don't really know why, but they're just getting paperwork together. Right, right. And th they're responsible to fill it out. the Right. Right. Right. response would be, well, just tell me what I need to do and do it for me, Mm-hmm. please. So we need to try and make it as easy as possible and also try and be at the right tables. in Italy, I am president of the Sectorial Association. So for entrepreneurs in the packaging labeling sector at Milanese level and I'm vice president at national level. And I'm also at the Wow, congratulations. technical table for Europe. Welcome to Sustainable Packaging with Cory Connors, presented by Atlantic Packaging. I'm your host, Cory Connors. In today's episode, I connected with the Vice President of Bota Eco Packaging, Lara Botta, all the way from Italy. We talked about how her grandmother started their business back in 1947 and how she continues to lead the way to a more sustainable future. And we talked about the Sustainable Packaging Summit coming up this November in Utrecht, Holland. We hope to see you there. I'd also like to thank 3M. SpecRite and Forest Packaging for being our sponsors. So excited to have my friend Lara Botta on again all the way from Italy. How are you, my friend? I am very well, very happy to speak to you again. It's been a while and we always meet up in various wonderful places talking about sustainable packaging and now we're back online, which is always good. It's been so fun getting to know you over the years and and getting to see you all over the world in Chicago and California in ~ in Europe. Europe. Missing Milan? That's ~ yes. You should be coming! I need to, yes. I've I've been invited there before and haven't made that trip. I I would like to add that to to the the list of places I've been. So it'd be wonderful to see you at at your home. So someday soon. Yes! Well, your ~ story and your your company story is a wonderful inspiration to many.~ Bota Eco Packaging has a remarkable origin story. Your grandmother founded the company.~ can you tell us about that and how how growing up in that legacy really shaped you and your professional career? Sure. Yes, as you said, it's my grandmother, is ~ something unusual in 1947, especially in Italy. And she decided to become an entrepreneur.~ had a job, but decided that she needed to do more and ~ kind of risked everything to try and cater for her four kids and big family, I guess. And it started after the war and she got into paper and packaging because that's what she knew and that's what her like formal role was before as an employee. So she went around Milan in tramways to try and sell ~ paper packaging. the story, the legend says that because there was still curfew after the war, when they would stop her after 8 p.m. no one would believe that she was working. So she would just say that she was going to buy food or fetch food for her kids and she would be believed because she was a woman. So I guess she's quite sly and determined to go against what usually women were allowed and expected to do. Right. A real trailblazer, and that's so impressive. And I think you've you've taken that torch and ran with it. I'm so impressed with you and what you've accomplished in your career already. And I'm sure you'll accomplish many more great things in the future.~ for people listening who aren't familiar with Boda packaging and and your focus on eco packaging, can you tell us about it and and and what kinds of materials that you provide in in Italy Sure. and beyond? So what my grandmother started was a company in corrugated cardboard boxes, which is still our core business. So we produce corrugated cardboard packaging, so corrugated boxes and transport for shipment. But in 2017, so before any trends was starting on sustainability, we started investigating this topic, trying to find new materials, new products around the world. So we would start scouting. We did a lot of open innovation with the universities, with the startups in the startup ecosystem. So the idea was to try and find new things because the idea is that, okay, we are an 80 year old company, but ~ if you continue doing things the way you've always done, well, the market in the meantime is going to change. So you need to keep up and continue innovating and continue finding the next new thing without eliminating your tradition, which is what you've always done and you're good at. But the idea of constantly finding the next new thing and being open to innovation and new business models is something that us, I believe. And I think is the way forward for a lot of companies that are probably as old as ours, but not as big as many multinationals that have lots of other resources that they can focus on. ~ So one of ~ the points of view of constantly innovating is trying to find new products. The idea is we know paper. We've come from paper and cardboard. So trying to find alternative products that might replace other materials that might be less sustainable, might not be required, might have regulations against them. In paper is something that we've investigated through the years. So since 2017, it's now a long time, which brings us to a good point in the market and a reference point in terms of final products and knowledge of what's around in the world. That means that we can also give ideas because a lot of companies come to us because they don't know how to solve an issue when it comes to sustainable packaging. It's like, what do I do? What's out there? And because Yeah. we've done it for so long for us, it becomes easier and faster. speed is another essential point for for companies, the faster you are, the better you're placed in the market. And I think this is another characteristic that specializes us and makes us a little bit more ~ expert in the field, but just because we've done it for so long, not because we're anything strange. well said. I totally agree. You are often presenting new materials that I haven't seen. I've learned so much from you over the years about innovative products and innovative materials. And like you said, for for many years, we you and I have been friends and and connected about sustainable packaging. And it's so cool to see you on social media holding up the latest~ and greatest innovation. And ~ and saying, wow, what does she ha what does she have today? And what what did they come up with now? And ~ so I I've yeah. I think another thing is having lots of different products means that you can mix and match. It's like having lots of pieces of the puzzle and Mm-hmm. you can mix and match the pieces so that you could create the puzzle that's~ specific for Great point. that company or problem or issue. Yeah. Exactly. Because the the packaging problems are so diverse, right? And mm. And the machinery you have, the costs you're looking for in budgets and the countries you're delivering to, that also changes. I, well, I know you and I find it exciting. Well, I think it is exciting. And ~ if you're listening to this podcast, you I think you you think it is too.~ you're like us and you care about the the future of the planet and the people.~ but I think Europe and Italy in particular here ha have been real and leaders in this space. and us in the US and other parts of the world have learned from you all.~ how why has that been such a a focus, do you think, for for your country and and and Continent. I think one thing is that we found a good way that's worked. So, recyclability, we have this entity that ~ makes sure that you pay for the amount of cardboard that you waste and it's all tracked and this has been going on for a long time for any material, not just paper. So, the recyclability ~ aspect has been part of what we do for a long time, which meant that when the regulations came... we were ahead of time. Why did that come up? Because it needed to be sorted. Italy has a tradition of ~ doing things well and trying to do them efficiently and cost efficiently as well. So I think that's part of the culture of trying to do things well and not waste ~ a bit because Wasting means wasting money as well as efficiency,~ because we want things done properly. So I think it's part of the culture of what we do. So it was prior to all these regulations that then came up. And I think Italy has also been a country in Europe that has kind of led the way because we were ahead of time. So when PPWR and all other regulations came up, we could give our own point of view as to what worked, what didn't, and how we reached certain results. You've been preparing for that for years and years without ~ even needing that law. Even know. Yeah. Well, that's what's so impressive, I think, about you and your your company and and your the way that you do things is it's ~ it's you're you're a true leader and that's why I'm so excited to have you on the podcast again.~ how are things Kind. in in Italy nowadays? ~ how is the business and climate and environment~ things are going good? things are going good. Let me give a few specifics. Ha ha so geopolitics is not, not helping,~ energy prices are definitely not helping. So there are some negative aspects to the market as a whole, not necessarily just the packaging market.~ but of course making corrugated cardboard,~ is energy. heavy. So when you start competing globally, that's an issue. So take that out. So the market in Italy is not expanding much, Mm-hmm. which means that it's harder. I'm not sure it's only Italy, but I can talk about Italy's increase is expected around 1%. Hmm. you know, that that changes the market slightly and having a USB is always more and more important. In terms of sustainable packaging, I can say that the push has changed. So before you wanted to be socially and ethically good by doing good. Today, the regulations is what is pushing everyone to do things. So there Mm-hmm. is less of that purpose ~ push and more of, tell me what I have to do to just be compliant, which takes the fun a bit away, I must admit. But if this is what it takes to improve things, I guess it's the right way. We had seat belts for long before the... regulations came but we only put seatbelts on once the regulation came. So I Mm-hmm. think regulations are quite determining in terms of changing culture and changing the way things are done. So we should welcome them even though ~ we do realize that there is less of a willingness in terms of improving what one does for the environment as a whole. Right. Right. Because it can be costly sometimes and and that's a challenge. But ~ I think what we've we've done, you and I and and many of us in the industry have come up with ways to make it more sustainable without being too much more costly. And sometimes it still can be a a cost savings, which is wonderful for for the customer. Yes. What I find is that, okay, the bias is it's costly, so I don't want to do it. But the issue is that when you speak with the wrong person, so if you speak with procurement, their sole objective is decreasing price. So the sustainability factor, they don't see it as a bonus because Mm-hmm. they don't see the direct effect on what they do. But as a whole, if you show me your process, I am sure that getting it more sustainable in either terms of material or product, if you show me your process, we can change the process. And it's actually more convenient for the firm. But if you do a comparison like for like, so the product, say one material instead of the other, then you'll see it's more costly. But you need to open up your perspective and understand that it's actually cheaper for the company, even though Mm-hmm. the actual product is more expensive if you compare it. So that's something that we find hard to reach because it always changes who you have in front of you when you talk. Right. Very true. And if not everyone in not all stakeholders are at the same table, because I think the outcome would change. Yeah, but but once we can convince them and show them the total numbers, it's it's pretty exciting ~ to be able to say, Look, you're right. It's it's gonna be it's going to save you money overall and that's that's good news. Overall, yes, that overall is not always taken into consideration, but it should be. That's the only way that you can actually improve the whole process. Exactly. Well I wanted to congratulate you. You've been named as one of ~ very few ambassadors for the sustainable packaging summit coming up in Utrecht, Holland. and I think it's you and me and just a few few other ~ people in the industry. ~ well done, that's so exciting. Tell tell us how that came to be and and what you're looking forward to there. I'm super honoured I'm with you which is ~ great, Mr. Mm-hmm. You're everywhere, like we've been following each other for years because similar in a lot of ways and we Very mm-hmm. have the same passion about this subject and we're in two different places of the world doing Ha ha.~ similar things so it's always exciting because we have different points of view. and different markets, you know?~ How did it come about? I think the fact that I've been into this topic for so many years has meant, actively tried to be in contact with the different entities that are around sustainable packaging globally. So coming to the U.S., trying to find out what happens there, trying to be ~ like reading everything about sustainable packaging, meaning packaging Europe has been one of my magazines for the last few years, having new products to communicate, that's meant that I've learned who actually knows the stuff around the world. So Right. I guess being active has meant that among us, we kind of know who's not only talking about things, but also doing things that we talk about. Right. That's the difference. Right. So I'm honored that the years of work on this topic has actually paid off and being recognized in some way. So I'm happy to be there. I would have been there anyway. Happy to be ambassador because I find I've been there a few times now, both as nominee for the sustainable packaging awards and as just a I guess. I think it's one of the best events for sustainable packaging where who are honestly interested go to understand what's new. And we all know a lot about sustainable packaging. for the actual summit, it's hard to keep it ~ really up to date. Right. But I realized that when we go to exhibitions and things, lots of people talk about sustainability, but there's not that many that actually know what we're talking about. So Mm-hmm. I find that the summit is where the people who know are and the people Yeah. who want to make a difference are. And it's always good to exchange ideas, find partnerships, and understand how different parts of the world are tackling the issue and how it's going, because we're all kind of connected in the same sector. If we want to improve, we have to kind of help each other and find out how best to do things so that we don't make mistakes unnecessarily. I love that. Exactly. It's it's kind of the elite event, i in my opinion. And I think for for people like you and I that care about sustainable e and packaging, it's it's it's a must attend.~ will y will you be speaking this year? Will you have a booth? Well with ~ This year, I'll be moderating a panel on paperization, which is a trending topic and one that I've been discussing previously because it's a trending topic and it's controversial. It is. Still, which is interesting. So it's a trend, but it's not always the best way. So I understand that~ often lack of knowledge means that you just make decisions following a trend and not following numbers or actual data and scientific data. ~ But perception from the customers is also something that ~ is important for brands because they need Right. to be perceived as green and ecological and sustainable. And we can't think that economic sustainability is not an issue as well. So if perception is required, you need to take into consideration that there will be some aspect of ~ being perceived as sustainable and not only ~ giving data to show Mm. that you're sustainable. is the right way. There's something interesting I've Great points. read ~ on the way of making decisions because we know that from statistics, everybody really, the majority of people want to buy sustainable. However, when you get to the purchasing action,~ there's system one and system two, mode one, mode two, ~ and we go for the fast, whatever you don't really think. Buying sustainable means that you have to kind of check the box, check the data. That's fine. What's the LCA? Is it really better? Can you recycle it? And it's really laborsome for when you go to a you want to do it as fast as possible and you don't switch to Good point. that system too. So our responsibility. I think is trying to make that switch as natural as possible and as easy as possible so that you don't have to switch to mode two and it can be a direct purchase and straight away buy sustainable. But today it's hard because there's lots of competition on the aisles and trying to find the right balance between being transparent and giving all the information but then it's too much and the consumer can't cater all of it in such a small time and trying to be like to the point and giving as little information as possible, but it's clear from a logo and Right. every country has the same logo. And if you have it, it means you're certified. And that's what we need to try and have as an objective. That's such a great point. I I don't want to gloss over that because the consumer perception is so important.~ but does it feel like to you that the consumer is almost expecting things to be more sustainable today? And if they're not, ~ they're they're kind of put off by it. Right, it depends from the consumer, it depends on the age. So age Right. Mm-hmm. range seems to be something that switches the amount of sustainability they're looking for. The younger the age, the more they're expecting it and the more they decide to go for one brand rather than another because of sustainability. I think... The older generation goes more on a traditional mode, on that mode one, and don't really Mm-hmm. believe anything they say. They can't really understand. It's really complicated. You need to be interested. And I don't think the older generation has had much ~ interest or knowledge on sustainability. It's more at school today and in the past 10 years. So I think it really depends what your audience is in the market. as to what you do and how much you focus on the sustainability aspects for the consumer. Yeah, there is a lot to it. Yeah, you're right. There's a lot to it. It's a it's very intricate. It's very ~ it's it's There's never a right answer, which is ~ it's constant constantly changing too, right? ~ constantly changing. And the fact that there's never a right answer, the best for you rather. Mm-hmm. So the answer, the question, which one's more sustainable? It's not that easy. If it were that Right. easy, we would have the answers already, but it really depends. Where does it go? What do you do with it? How much waste do you have? How often do you use it? How long does it need to last? So all these Exactly. questions that need to be tackled to know and make an informed decision as to what's best for you, for that product, for your audience and for that point in time. Yeah, well said. Oftentimes people I'll post like you, you and I are very active on social media, which ~ congratulations to you for doing that. That's so I love watching your vi your videos. Hard work. It is hard work. ~ but we're often ~ kind of putting ourselves out there and saying, Hey, here's a new product, this is what we like to see. And then I'm sure you're you're like me, you'll get a lot of feedback on those videos and people say, Well, is it more sustainable? And the answer is maybe. depends.~ we we hope so.~ it c it can be it depends on this, this and this and and also that. And ~ I think you're exactly right. You ha people don't understand what what our job is is just providing those options that that are available for our can our customers to to have choices. I agree, informed decisions, that's all they need Uh-huh. and making it easier for them because we've done the work, we've studied it all, we know it for them so that they can avoid all that time that it would take to become expert in what's around and what's out there. So I guess that's our job. Well, any advice for people visiting ~ Europe or Utrecht for the event in Any advice? guess, yeah, Yeah, as a as a European, what tell us Americans what to do. make, well, to the summit, you need to meet as many people as possible. And I realized that ~ people change jobs, but they tend to not change roles. So they change companies, but like once you're in sustainable packaging, you kind of stuck. it's great Ha ha. even though. ~ Like even if time passes, you still keep in touch with everyone. And I think that's the best part of ~ this community that has been created around the topic. ~ I totally agree. And as the difficulties arise, all these new regulations that are coming up and it's really intricate. You and I know how intricate it is and how much the consumers are. are getting anxious about all this paperwork that is required. They don't really know why, but they're just getting paperwork together. Right, right. And th they're responsible to fill it out. the Right. Right. Right. response would be, well, just tell me what I need to do and do it for me, Mm-hmm. please. So we need to try and make it as easy as possible and also try and be at the right tables. in Italy, I am president of the Sectorial Association. So for entrepreneurs in the packaging labeling sector~ at Milanese level and I'm vice president at national level. And I'm also at the Wow, congratulations. technical table for Europe. So the idea is being at the right in the right places where you can actually make an impact and by understanding what the requirements from the market are being at the right table means that you're talking to people and being able to say what actually the companies need in order to Hmm. become sustainable, to do things properly. Because I think there needs to be a lot of dialogue to ensure that these regulations~ can be implemented. Otherwise, it just stays as a rule that it's unimplementable because Right. you don't know how things work in a business. So I think getting both the economic entrepreneurial aspect together with the bureaucrats and the politicians who have an impact, I think is the best way to try and get to the objectives as seamlessly as possible. Said. Thank you so much, Lara. And thank you for the work that you're doing on those committees and on that's very prestigious, it sounds like to me.~ what's the best way for people to get in touch with you and and your company? Right. We have a website, www.botta.it, where you can find our portfolio of products. Very active on LinkedIn, as you well know, Botta Lara. And our company page is Botta EcoPackaging, where we always communicate our novelties in terms of sustainable packaging. I'm sure any way is I'm happy to connect by email, whatever. I'm always happy to talk shop. Yes. Well thanks again for being on our show. We really appreciate you. And I'll see you in Utrecht in November. Yes, not long to go. Thank you, Cory.