Can honeycomb paper replace plywood for packaging? / Raymond Hayden

Raymond Hayden (RaymondH@sunrisemfg.com)
Do you need freight protection for your products?
How can air bags protect your pallets?
Would you like to be able to replace plywood in your truck?
http://www.sunrisemfg.com/
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Transcript

Cory Connors: 0:34

Welcome to the sustainable packaging with Cory Connors . I'm very excited to introduce to you guys, my very close friend, Mr. Raymond Hayden, who is the damage prevention specialist at sunrise manufacturing? How are you?

Raymond Hayden: 0:49

I'm fantastic, brother. How are

Cory Connors: 0:50

you? Good, man. We've known each other for oh, 180 years. Something like

Raymond Hayden: 0:54

that. It's actually about 178

Cory Connors: 1:00

can with you as a rookie many years ago. And we were very successful together. We've had a lot of very positive.

Raymond Hayden: 1:07

Yeah, it's funny because when I think of you because you and I have we work with each other on and off throughout the years. And I think it's how funny is it that you're a rookie and I was, I had been a sales rep for probably, I don't know, maybe close to 10 years at that time. And I literally was in, I remember I was in a meeting with you guys in, in Wilsonville. I've I got flux cookies and tea and coffee to keep everybody happy. And I talked about dunnage and, and wood replacement and you and I, and you were the only one that really, you know, was interested in, came up to me after the meeting. And you know, as well as I do that, that, that little conversation that happened after that meeting. I think about two or three months from there nearly a million dollar win you, but it's still, it was like, yeah. And you were a rookie for God's sake. Oh man.

Cory Connors: 2:02

Huge. Absolutely. Game-changer and and in, in a very positive environmental effect, we absolutely literally re replacing plywood. Truckloads. I don't know how many truckloads we did sometimes seven or eight a month.

Raymond Hayden: 2:18

First order was the first order was from 15 truckloads, I think.

Cory Connors: 2:22

And we were replaced. Plywood with at the time it was called Hexacomb right there with a different company. And it's amazing to think that that material is equal from a performance standpoint for what we needed it for. Absolutely. And not only is it a replacement it's, it's incredibly likely. Which will save the weight on the trucking. So is environmental win and a business win.

Raymond Hayden: 2:52

Well, that's why, that's why. Yeah, exactly. And that's why reps, like, like you and whoever trained you before you there's a, there's a handful out there that understand that when you go to do make a sale, especially in packaging we have a responsibility to our company and the environment, you know, and it's not just go in there. Hey, how much are you paying? Right. And at 9 95, we'll also sell it to you for 9 85. Right. And because just that, when we're talking about, you know, the plywood replacement in the and the transportation industry, not only was it from a cost point more and more affordable, but like you said, it was lighter weight. So it was easier on employees prevented less, you know, less on the. Issues and safety concerns stainable can be recycled and took down, took out weight in the truck, so all around sustainable, what a win. So

Cory Connors: 3:40

cool. Such a cool story. Yeah. So I know you've got a very diverse background as a, as a rock star, a musician, all these cool things. You're you were in the military. How do you go from all of that, to the packaging industry?

Raymond Hayden: 3:56

Interesting. And I'll make it to safe that Brian was me. Oh God. Right. Ready? We all get 20 minutes. First of all, how I got into the packaging packaging packaging industry was simple. It was it was one of the key elements to what, what you and I do for a living and that's listening. And my boss listen. Going backwards out of high school, my parents were divorced and I I wasn't, what was me. I was like, okay. I, I wanna, I wanna, I want to see the world. I want to travel. And how am I going to do that with with a, with a single mom and no dad around, I was like, well, I'll join the military. It turns out one of the best decisions in my life. Cause I, I got, I got a great recruiter and I got Europe guaranteed. So I got to go over and live in Germany. Work in a tank battalion, which was not sure why I chose that stills, but while I was over there, I happened to meet and I'm giving you the short version. I happened to meet some people who are musicians, and we joked around one out over barriers and said, Hey, you should buy a keyboard and then how to play it. And I ended up doing that and all of us, we're all in the military. We stayed over there in a band and toured all over Europe and then decided to come back home. Of course we'll come back and all kinds of things happened in the band, broke up, came back to Washington state just to kind of take care of some family stuff. My grandmother was still when I was taking care of her for a while and went back to college and fast forwarding again. I was at, when I got out of college, I went to work for the state of Washington and I kept getting. Kind of roll it over for jobs because just because of quotas in different things like that, not for Salesforce, but for different, you know, men, women minorities, all this stuff and so be it. And so why I said listening is because, And Matt married one of my oldest dearest friends from growing up and him, him and I would go to lunch every. I don't know every couple of months, I just, I just was sitting there to saying, I can't believe I got passed over again. I says, you know, they promised me I was going to get this going on and on. And he's sitting there across the table and he looks at me and he goes, you know, you said, you know, my company, our company is looking for for we'll call it. Oh, is that so basically because he listened, cause he'd heard me, he goes after the, over the last couple of lunches, I've heard you'd beaten being miserable. He says, you're, you're a good guy. I want to come and get a start here. So I went to work for we'll call for a company called a desk reference supply and year or so in. They, they basically told me that The sell the sales and we'll call it grown 40 to 50%. They're putting me out in the field. And then I became a distributor sales rep for, for polyurethane, polyethylene, polypropylene expanded piracy, polystyrene. You get it, get it. That's where I got my start as a distributor rep. And then now things happen then basically Matt ended up going and getting a job. Manager at Hexacomb was Pregis at the time. And then down the road I followed him there and so yeah, we both, like, he was the boss. I was the minion. Yeah. Ever since

Cory Connors: 7:05

then, you guys had a good partnership. Yeah,

Raymond Hayden: 7:08

we have a good part. I mean, he, he does things a certain way. I do things a certain way and we compliment each other. And like you and I, I mean, same thing. It's like when you're a mill rep and your distributor reps, you know, you have to compliment each other, you have to trust each other. That, that doesn't just happen overnight.

Cory Connors: 7:24

Well, I'm honored to have a friend like you in the industry and just as, as a person, you know, you've you definitely got, got me through some tough times in my life. And you know, just like you said, just listened and I think we've been there for each other through, through hard times and through great times. Oh

Raymond Hayden: 7:42

yeah, yeah. To do personal stuff and I'll go through.

Cory Connors: 7:45

And through big wins. Yeah. So it's, it's, it's cool to be able to go through those kinds. Yeah, absolutely. This is a question I'm asking all, all my important guests here on the show. I'm very interested to know your thoughts. Can packaging be sustainable?

Raymond Hayden: 8:06

I absolutely think packaging can be sustainable. Like anything, I believe that there are exceptions. Yes. The packaging. I mean, of course what I focus on, everything I focus on is is, is done it just Frank protection materials. Lion's share of what we do is corrugated dealt with corrugated stopped down void pillows, honeycomb, as you said. So the majority of what we do is sustainable. Some of it's reusable and a lot of it can just be hogged and putting it in a corrugated dumpster. And I think your question is kinda more vast. And when you say packaging. When I look at everything I've done in the packaging industries there are, I think, I think it's an 80 20 rule. I think 80% of it. Of the packaging out there could be sustainable. I mean, you know, that they they've there's clamshells and things like that that are made out of potato byproducts, all

Cory Connors: 8:53

that amazing. But

Raymond Hayden: 8:55

there, yeah. Right. It's absolutely amazing, but there are still things and, and listen, we've got some brilliant people and a lot of them, right. Your company, but things like polyurethane. Stand polyethylene foam, things like that when it comes to electronics that's just going to take a lot more engineering. Can it be done? Absolutely. But it's a lot more engineering because. You know, years ago when I was at Hexacomb , they tried to coming up with a product that they call the cushion and it was meant to replace polyethylene phones like that with electronics. Right. Because as you know, if a package drops, intellect, that electronics and that force is distributed to that. And so you know, we tried that didn't work because paper doesn't have the same memory. Does it have the same, obviously? Attributes as foam does, when you say it can, can packaging the sustainable. I absolutely think yes, except for where a lot of the polyurethane polyethylene, polypropylene foams are being used. And then I think that the basically it's going to come down to engineering. Right. So you know, there's cut, there comes a point, right? You know, you, you know, you have to, you know, you can use, what's always been used, but if we go down and please go down that rabbit hole of continuing to use, what's always been used. We're going to continue to fill up our landfills and what I mean. Right. So that's where I see. I don't necessarily see that the material is a problem. I just see that there's needs to be some engineering. No, and maybe, maybe, maybe best case would be, get some engineering done that marries up some of the, some of the sustainable recyclable products with foam. Continue to reduce that footprint, but our engineers and our designers in the packaging field are the ones that are going to really need to stuff. I

Cory Connors: 10:38

agree. And we're excited to announce certain new changes to molded pulp packaging. We're working with HP and other companies that are to replace polyethylene and polyurethane. Nice with some molded pulp and corrugated and hexacomb or, or honeycomb designs. So those are some of the things I need to talk to you about actually. But very exciting things happening there. And I think a lot of these companies that are pledging towards higher PCR, more recyclable packaging by 2030. Are starting to act now and their design changes and just planning. Cause some of these, some of these designs can take a year or two as you know, to really get into fruition because they cannot be without supply. And we need to be 100% certain that we've got stock and everything. So it's exciting to see.

Raymond Hayden: 11:35

And if I make a side note, please, so interesting that you said that. Because as you know, in this world, timing is everything right. And the things that whether it's in business or whether it's in personal to the things that people seem to want some more of is time

Cory Connors: 11:52

and money. Right, right.

Raymond Hayden: 11:54

Yeah. Right. Exactly. So what you just talked about about, about, you know, the engineering and taking the time, and then you said being able to get things in stock, right. So. Over COVID I spent a lot of time. I got, I hired a life coach. I did a lot of things. I was like, okay, we have been giving this is terrible way. I know. I'm just going to, we've been given a gift. We've been given this amount of time. To restart things, to reinvent things too, to kind of kickstart things and look at things differently, which I think happenings to happen. You know, at least every now and then, and with what's going on in the world as you, as well as I do, if anyone is listening to this podcast in the fact that industry knows how volatile the market is right now with freight, with everything under the sun. Price increases, unprecedented price increases. Customers don't know their price on things a lot of times. So they put the PO in. Right?

Cory Connors: 12:52

Right. So

Raymond Hayden: 12:53

with all that, you know, all that being said, so the volatility of the market is hard and forced measure was being put in place on a lot of products. You know, it, it, it shut our corner board and deaf line down for two months, the forest mature with acetate for glue. Wow. So right now, I'm excited to hear that you're doing that because there's this lull in the market, you know, where people are kind of people are buying. And you're probably like as busy if we're buying that, this is the time now for companies to really get off their car in our butts and, and develop these things and figure out what is going to do because getting raw materials now is more difficult than it's ever been. So it's perfect timing.

Cory Connors: 14:12

Yeah. And it doesn't seem to be slowing down in any time soon. I've heard 2022, I've heard 2023 where people saying, oh, we'll catch up. We'll catch up. Well, the world has changed. People want delivery, right? And so we have to, we have to be able to accommodate that, like it or not and, and figure out how we're going to package everything individually that used to be packaged in bulk at a, at a shopping store or a mall or something like that. So it's just going to take more packaging. That's it? That's it,

Raymond Hayden: 14:44

people don't like change, but, you know, change changes all the things. Never going to go away. I mean, it is what it is and that's when we all, I mean, whether, whether we're, you know, you're in the president's club at your company or a rookie, you're still probably going to be a little frustrated with everything that's going on, but then you wake up in the morning and pull up those bootstraps and you're like, Hey, this is an opportunity that the people who will Excel and have success and be able to sustain themselves within this market are the ones who really. Think outside the box on his infrastructure. It's cool.

Cory Connors: 15:20

Or inside the box. So tell us about sunrise. What kinds of things are you guys manufacturing? What kinds of, what kinds of materials are you replacing with your, your built-up corrugated and your honeycomb and your other things like that? Sure,

Raymond Hayden: 15:39

sure. Well yeah. And thanks again, Cory . I really appreciate you having me on here to give me an opportunity. Chat with you. And then also to looked at my company manufacturing has been around since 1981. This isn't going to be the

Cory Connors: 15:53

bullet point,

Raymond Hayden: 15:54

but it's always nice to let people know how long the company's been around. So they know that it's not the first time to rodeo. So we've been going since 1981. I kind of joke around and because I want people to remember about us. We're kind of, I kind of look at sunrise as a smiley face of the United States because we have we have a business model that is sustainable because of that smiling face and a smiley face is a plant plant in Vancouver, Washington, Rancho Cordova, California, Santa Teresa, New Mexico Eagle pass, Texas a road, Georgia. Now, if you're looking at a map. That the giant smiley face. Exactly. I tried to get our marketing people to do something with that, but so those are where our plants are. It allows us to have to sustain our, what we do in the market, across the U S through the fives and the four or fives and all that. Predominantly we are a freight protection. I mean, we do. Okay. We do have products. That can be used inside the box. I kind of come on, like you said, Hexacomb , it's basically a Coke, Pepsi, same, same thing. So the honeycomb products can be used inside box, of course. And for a lot of different elements, but some majority of what we, what we sell into is, you know, a lot of times distributors will go into a company like whether it's Coca Cola or, or mill guard or. Let's call it for Samsung, right. And there's products and they're taking those products and they want to put them inside of a box to package for the consumer. So they're looking at aesthetics and the outside of the box. We're looking at protection on the inside of the box. Then they palletize it well, when it comes time for any manufactured products to go from point a to point B. That's where sunrise manufacturing freight protection and not just to build voids, but literally. So, you know, we have, we have honeycomb that goes into replace wood and other types of products, plastic slip sheets, plastic totes. We have airbags. We have dropped down void pillars. We have diamond packs, which are giant corrugated honeycomb pad. Oh, we have built up corrugated. We have desiccants. We have stretch wrap. We have a tie wrap Tigard, sorry. Basically you get the picture and there's other ancillary things we do, but basically it's when the company is willing to ship their manufacturing product, the box in the box and everything from wherever they're shipping it to, whether it's the distributor or the end user or overseas or wherever, whether it's. Intermodal for freight. That's where we come in and we don't, we don't, I mean, we will sell it singular items like we have with you, but we pride ourselves on creating systems because when you're in a truck or an intermodal or, or a a rail, they're all very, very good. Modes. And there's different levels of violences as far as transportation. And so, you know, in some of some of those cases, you know, in the very back of the truck, we'll have honeycomb panels and then down the center of the truck will have void fillers. And on the front, maybe in the front, we'll have airbags to lock everything, incredible kids. So it's simplest put freight protection. We're EV everything that you could possibly think of. From from the manufacturer to the distributor, wherever else, safely. That's right.

Cory Connors: 19:05

It's impressive. The, the vast product lists that you guys have is very impressive. You you've been a great partner for Landsberg and we appreciate that. I thought of you yesterday. I heard my friend Aveo mottos was telling me a story about air bags. And he said that this customer was having damage to their packaging and. They couldn't figure out why. So do they need to increase the thickness of the corrugated? Do they need to add V board you know, why are these boxes getting squished? And what they figured out was as they go over the mountains the air bags that they had between their pallets were expanding. And they were enough to crush the boxes. And so all they had to do was change the route of the truck and it saved them thousands of dollars on, on damage. So it, I thought it'd be because I thought, well, they could have not only. Could they change the route, but they could also go to those dropdown corrugated things, things that you guys have.

Raymond Hayden: 20:16

Oh yeah. There's a lot of the times. I mean, listen, if, if product gets damaged, I mean, there's got like, like you, you know, you had to have to ask a lot of questions, we get it, you know, you don't, I think sometimes reps and I'm sure I've done this before you get, we get. We're confident in ourselves. Right. And we should be, we've known a lot of times, you know, getting experienced, but sometimes if it comes back to what I said earlier, We just need to listen. Yeah. Because if we ask questions and to sit back and listen we might find out sometimes that the answer, like you said, is, is simpler than going in and spending a bunch of time and doing whatever. And you know, years ago, my boss I went in with a particular customer and he said, so what's the. You said, so what's the what's driving this change. Oh, price. Any, you said price so well, tell me about the Kevin told him he goes and I said, well, I asked them, I said, Hey, I literally asked them what is driving this change? And they, and they literally said to me price now, this is what I was a younger rep. And my boss, you said, Ray price is never the answer. And I looked at him, I remember looking at him and I was just kind of looking at him going, huh. And in my head of course, prices yet. I mean, everyone wants a better price. And he said, it's, it's the need behind the needs of what is driving the price. And I'm like, so I need to ask them why they said, so you asked them what, why is the price important? And I, and I remember thinking, oh my God. And so he went on a call with me that I called me and I remember. I'll never forget it. I he's. I said, Hey, so the other day, when I hear you told me the price was important, can you tell me why price is important? He goes, oh yeah, because I mean, he didn't even flinch. He just started saying, well because we're having, we're having issues with the, getting this truck, I mean, getting this product out of this, you know, this, this co customer in Portland or something that I guess anyway, it was the same. It had. Nothing to do with the products. So here, here, we were like looking at possibly figuring out a way to redesign the product, get, get the you know, take margin out of the product, whatever, and nothing to do with a product. We literally. Made a phone call when we left there and we were able to solve their problem. No. Did our sales increase on that particular time? No, but they also did. We also didn't lose margin. We didn't waste time asking questions

Cory Connors: 22:47

and you helped them. And, and they'll never forget that. I think when I ask questions like that sometimes people get surprised like, oh, you, you actually care enough to go through this process. Spend your time. You're not in a hurry. You know, so many times I've been on calls with rookies or as a rookie and I've been in a hurry. It's like, just, just settle down, sit down and listen and ask the right questions. And that's where the wisdom comes in, I think is what are the right question?

Raymond Hayden: 23:21

Yeah. I, I, it's funny you say that it reminded me. Yeah. About being good partners, right? Is we don't share margins and all that kind of stuff. I mean, that, that, that's, that's too close to the company belt, but we do share a lot of targeted prices. We do whatever. But speaking of that, slowing down, I can't remember what it was, but I remember a time you actually told me that you were. Just just calm down slowly because I get it. I, because I, I can, you know, I can tend to get into that mode cause I want to get it fixed. I want you to be happy. I want everyone to be taken care of. It doesn't always mean that doesn't mean go a million miles a minute. It just means slow down. Yeah, we'll get there. It's powerful. And if more reps would just, we know, you know, years ago I had known the only real sales training I've ever had. Back in, back in the days at another company that I was with, and it was the old Xerox training and it was before you go into a sales call, take a deep breath, and then remember these four words, open probe support close. And I remember when we first started. Yeah. Open probes support closed. Oh my God. I'm not going to do that. I'm just going to go in and say, hi, what's going on? I'm going to ask, having some sort of, if you, if you, if you take the time to breathe and just take the time to organize your thoughts, it helps because every call you go in and you need to have your, you know, maybe it's not didactic, but, you know, cause you, cause you said. The customer goes, oh, I really care. You don't want to leave no matter how they're like, oh yeah. I only got 10 minutes. They give you 30 minutes. You can still leave. And they could say, well, he just wasted 30 minutes of my time. So it's just a respect respecting your end, their time. For sure.

Cory Connors: 25:04

And to ask a question like. Or say something like, listen, we're here to help you guys. W we don't know that we're the right provider, but if we are we'll, we'll do everything we can. And just to watch their shoulders fall and just like the stress comes out of the room and it's like, listen, we're not trying to push anything. If, if we're the right solution, we're gonna. And, and, and we'll be great, great partners. If we're not, we'll find the right person for you. That's the simple, but the simple mindset that has eliminated so much stress from my career in the last 10 years. Yeah.

Raymond Hayden: 25:41

Well being, being, being in the patching issue for about 25 or so years, Dish. I've worked with you know, the predominant amount of that was, has been in a male rap. So I've been fortunate enough to work with law reps. There's only, there's a lot of really good reps out there. There's only a handful of reps seriously, and I'm not saying this podcasts and food reps out there like yourself, really take the time to listen and, and to work with partners and do all that. And yeah. You know, you're not perfect. I'm not perfect. No, one's perfect. But accountability is the key thing. And you're in your little lady just said there about you say the customer that's important. I mean, because they're, yeah, of course they're buying from the company, but the person who's representing the company is right in front of them. And so you're that conduit and yeah. Yeah. People, people, people are, you know, you're, you're a sales rep. There are buyers. Once you remove that from the equation. I there's two people trying to help each other and we've got a problem. Maybe you've got a solution.

Cory Connors: 26:42

Totally simple.

Raymond Hayden: 26:43

I agree. I love it.

Cory Connors: 26:47

So how do we get ahold of you, sir? W what's the best way?

Raymond Hayden: 26:51

The best way to get ahold of me is Raymond Hayden, or sorry, Raymond H at sunrise, mfg.com. Raymond H at sunrise, mfg.com. And yeah, that's my email. Try to respond quick on the F anyone out there has any questions about what we do. Or you know, maybe tell that one to tell me what they do and I can tell them how our company can fit into that. Give me a call. Yeah. Emails. Yes. Yeah,

Cory Connors: 27:17

definitely. I'll put that on the show notes and I'll put a link, a link to your to your LinkedIn page. And yeah, I'd like to thank our sponsor Landsberg ORORA for their continued support of this podcast. Please listeners give us a review and you know, we would appreciate any, any feedback on the show. So we can keep doing this and spreading the word about sustainable packaging. It's it's important to our, our world. Thank you.

Raymond Hayden: 27:42

Absolutely.

Cory Connors: 27:44

Thank you, Ray, for being a guest. You're the man. I appreciate it.