Why are Co Packers so important? Ton Knipscheer / TK Packaging

https://www.linkedin.com/in/tonknipscheer/

What are co manufacturers and co packers doing to help with sustainability? 
How are companies using these partners to be more efficient? 
What is the future of sustainable packaging? 

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This podcast is an independent production and the podcast production is an original work of the author. All rights of ownership and reproduction are retained—copyright 2022.

Transcript

Cory Connors: 0:31

Welcome to Sustainable Packaging with Cory Connors. Today's guest is my friend, Ton Nipshire. He's a business consultant at TK Packaging. How are you, Ton? I'm good, thank you. Thank you for making time for this. I really appreciate it. We met recently in Amsterdam at Packaging Europe's event there, but I'd love to hear about your background. How'd you get into this crazy

Ton Knipsheer: 0:55

business? Oh, I've been in packaging longer than I care to remember. I literally grew up between packaging machines. My parents used to run different packaging companies. And, so obviously my first real job wasn't, was not a packaging. but eventually after eight years in marketing and advertising, I decided to follow my fate and, go back to packaging. I've never left. that's. 30 years ago. it's something, in packaging, which I really like. I've been responsible for the Pringles cans, in Europe. I ran a packaging plant in the Netherlands. I worked in the UK. I worked in Germany. I worked in Belgium. So it's, packaging. At the end of the day is interesting wherever you go, wherever you look at it, cardboard packaging, plastic packaging, flexible, rigid, everything.

Cory Connors: 1:42

I agree. And those Pringles cans are everywhere.

Ton Knipsheer: 1:47

Absolutely. When I started, there were two major plants, one in Jackson, Tennessee. One in Hel in Belgium, and now they got, I think when I was last candidate, they had 10 plants producing the Brigham guns. Believe it. It's crazy. It's a phenomen. It's fantastic.

Cory Connors: 2:04

It's just such a great, way to package them and, such an innovative item. I think, I think every pub I went to in Ireland had, Pringles on the counter, ready to go. Just in case you wanted some Exactly. I just saw this week that they have a recyclable can now, which is incredible. With

Ton Knipsheer: 2:23

the paper base. Correct. that's a major thing because you can imagine that the production lines are highly efficient. So changing them over to paper bases is A challenge to put it mildly.

Cory Connors: 2:35

I'm sure. I'm sure they weren't very happy, but I think it, or at least the production team, probably, not super excited, but I,

Ton Knipsheer: 2:43

we've had these discussions in my times as well, when we talked about, different lids, different membranes, different bases, and everybody said, great idea. Production people said. I've read a lot.

Cory Connors: 2:53

Good luck. Yeah, try.

Ton Knipsheer: 2:55

Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Cory Connors: 2:57

Well, let's talk about your consulting business, Ton. What do you focus on? What would, who would come to you for packaging wisdom?

Ton Knipsheer: 3:06

I consult small and medium sized companies. Business development and marketing. furthermore, I'm the executive director at the European Copacking Association, ECPA. and meanwhile, since about a month, I'm a proud grandfather of two boys.

Cory Connors: 3:22

Oh, congratulations. Wow. Oh, amazing.

Ton Knipsheer: 3:26

Six weeks old

Cory Connors: 3:26

now. Well, what an incredible honor to, to be a grandparent. I can't wait. Yeah, I can imagine. I can recommend it. Actually, I can wait. You have to. I'm happy to wait. Exactly. Well, it was great to meet you at Packaging Europe in Amsterdam. Can you tell us a little bit about your experience there? What did you think of that event?

Ton Knipsheer: 3:51

I thought it was a great event. I think it's always good to see so many packaging people as so much packaging expertise in one building, especially now with the whole, PPWR legislation coming on board, in Europe nowadays, but of course, it'll follow throughout the world, I'm sure, and these debates about that, reusable packaging, circular packaging, really inspiring, I must say I was really inspired.

Cory Connors: 4:15

agree. Me too. And, incredible insights. The speakers were, top notch and, some unique, revelations. I was excited to see company like Amazon step up and say, we're going to use, recyclable packaging in Europe. A hundred percent. Whoa. that's a big

Ton Knipsheer: 4:35

revelation. It's a major change as well for these companies, because just like with the Pringles, these people have such a big footprint, that any kind of change is automatically massive,

Cory Connors: 4:48

right? huge impact, and you're based in, Amsterdam. So it wasn't, I'm

Ton Knipsheer: 4:52

based about an hour and a half south of Amsterdam, but the Netherlands is so small. We limited the speed. So we, make our country look bigger.

Cory Connors: 5:02

We, I was able to bring my wife, on that trip and we sure had a great time. It was her birthday and, really enjoyed that event. Yeah. Nice

Ton Knipsheer: 5:12

place to be in Amsterdam if it's on your birthday. Unfortunately, the weather wasn't too good, but,

Cory Connors: 5:16

we're right., we're from Oregon in the US and Oh sure. It rains a lot here. So we say we have web feed over here. and that's very true. Yeah. Okay. We're used to it. It was okay to us. it felt normal and, we were pleasantly surprised it didn't rain every day. That's where we set our expectation.

Ton Knipsheer: 5:37

Okay. Now, if you don't raise the bar too high, then you'll be good.

Cory Connors: 5:41

Yeah. my, my one thing I learned is, well, I learned a lot, but, watch out for bikes. They, they have right away. Yeah.

Ton Knipsheer: 5:50

And if they don't have it, they'll take it. I've been going through Amsterdam with lots of foreign colleagues and I had sometimes I had to pull the back because they were going in with their expectations like normal bike drivers would behave and in Amsterdam bike drivers are not really normal. I can tell you, even for us Dutch, if we're not from Amsterdam, we go like, okay. That's the way it goes. We shouldn't just. Right.

Cory Connors: 6:13

Right. I love

Ton Knipsheer: 6:15

that. But driving a bike, by the way, is an excellent form of transportation. You cannot imagine if all these people will get into a car. Yeah. Given the, if the distance is appropriate and, it is definitely a good form of transportation.

Cory Connors: 6:28

Well, let's talk about packaging. what do you recommend to your clients, to make their packaging more sustainable? What's some of your go to, secrets?

Ton Knipsheer: 6:38

I always tell my customers and everybody I talk to in the business, because I'm a packaging geek, packaging should be, looked at as a, from a design for recycling, standpoint. So every designer should start with the end of life, the packaging in mind. If they do that, you're good to go. So if you, and also question the shelf life, the request shelf life, is it necessary to have two years shelf life? or is the product consumed within three months? If so reduce the laminate. And if you can go to a mono material, if you're in plastics or a cardboard with, a recyclable, laminate, do so. And don't go back to what you've done before because you've always done it like that. And this is the same for the Pringles cans. Pringles cans used to have shelf life of 18 months because they were produced in one side in the world. Now they're produced in 10 sides of the world, while you still have 18 months.

Cory Connors: 7:34

Exactly. And those things are getting consumed quickly. very popular product and maybe 8 months would be enough, or even 6, and like you said.

Ton Knipsheer: 7:44

Exactly. And why do, why would you overspecify 95 percent of your products for 5 percent of your market? If you have a particular market, which requires more shelf life, then make that a special run. And the same thing I always tell it to my, speak with my customers about is the paperization of packaging, as I call it, I love paper packaging, but replacing a. Appropriate plastic packaging for paper packaging just because you want to be looked at as a sustainable packaging supplier. Not necessarily the right way,

Cory Connors: 8:19

right? Agree it you can't do it just for perception we need to do it because it's the right And correct system. I love that. You said that the correct sustainable choice Yeah, and

Ton Knipsheer: 8:34

this paperization of packaging is something which has come across the market. You see it all over the place in Europe. But then if you analyze the pack, it turns out that there is a laminate inside and the plastic packaging could have been a monomaterial, which was fully recyclable. And the laminate on the paper may not.

Cory Connors: 8:53

Well said. Are you seeing, this, PPWR and these different, extended producer responsibility laws, are they making recycling more, easy to do, I should say?

Ton Knipsheer: 9:07

I think, there is a monetary incentive in the Netherlands. We, as of January this year, we started with a differentiation of the packaging taxes. That means that a plastic, which is not easy to recycle, will pay more taxes, will have a higher levy than plastics, which are easily recyclable and that's for all materials. That means there is a financial incentive to go for a. Packaging format, which is recyclable. And I think this is the way it goes. Otherwise, it's going to be just lip service.

Cory Connors: 9:43

Well said, it's come to this. We thought it would, where we would have to make it financially, hurt, to use packaging that is not, sustainable. but I think what you're going to see is a lot of, companies making good decisions. I hope.

Ton Knipsheer: 9:58

exactly. And this is what but you have to have some form of legislation behind it because if governments or authorities. Do not, put their money where their mouth is. The companies won't do either. Well said. And the same thing goes for plastic bags. If you go to a grocery store in the Netherlands or anywhere in Europe, you have to pay for your plastic bag to take out the stuff. In the US, sometimes you still get it for free. What happens is there's no value attached to it.

Cory Connors: 10:24

Yeah, you're seeing that more and more in the U. S. as well. the plastic bag ban, the single use plastic bag, I should say. we're all about our reusable bags over here. And, a lot of people are willing to even pay for the five cents, for the paper bag. or the, or plastic if it's allowed, because they need them. but hotly debated topic over here for sure, changing consumers, options. they don't like all the time,

Ton Knipsheer: 10:52

but sometimes that's a slow process, but you have to facilitate it through, there has to be an infrastructure for the recycling. but there also has to be, an offering for it. There are packaging free supermarkets in Europe. So far, none of them has been really successful, but there are other initiatives to use circular packaging, like, for example, prefilled packaging, instead of refill, it goes into a prefill. I'm now working with a UK company on a prefill concept where they have plastic packs, and they have them filled, then they At a co packer, then they ship them to the consumer, direct to consumer or through specialized retailers, then when the consumer has finished with them, they collect them back or they deliver them back, they clean them and they refill them again. So you have no hygienic and allergen and, other responsibilities for the consumer to refill it in the supermarket, which. Eventually never works out.

Cory Connors: 11:50

yeah, it's tough to ask the consumer to refill their item. but

Ton Knipsheer: 11:56

who's responsible for spillage? If you spill something on the floor, who's responsible? Who

Cory Connors: 12:01

buys that? Right. the brand has to probably eat that loss, unfortunately. but what will happen is they're going to save money on packaging. the brand, so maybe they can pass that savings along to that, extra, spillage, percentage and, and even make their product, Same

Ton Knipsheer: 12:22

thing goes for hygiene, of course, if you look at, hygiene, at a refill station in a supermarket, that's always challenging if you have, allergens coming around like with nuts. Another product that's always challenging. If you go for it from the standpoint where you do a pre fill at a specialized location. Yeah,

Cory Connors: 12:40

that's all solved. Right. And, I talked to a large company about, pre fill concentrates. And, they were very concerned with the chemistry of the, cleaning agent, it can't be too concentrated and it can't be too watered down, to work effectively. So they were very concerned with the exact dose, being used in the bottle. And they solved that by a closed capsule, I thought was really intelligent. I've

Ton Knipsheer: 13:14

seen, I've seen, a packaging award price being, given to a company in the Netherlands last year for a, dose of a cleaning agent in a water soluble pouch, which the consumer got through the mailbox, in a small cardboard box, and they put it in a flask, added the water to it, which is exactly measured, shook it a little while, and then it worked. So it was not shipping water around. I think you said that, that shipping water around with cleaning agents is ridiculous. Yes, I agree.

Cory Connors: 13:44

Yeah. Yeah. And it doesn't need to

Ton Knipsheer: 13:46

be that way.

Cory Connors: 13:47

you're exactly right. hand soap, cleaning agents, shampoo, these things can be easily. diluted at home, assuming you have a source of water, which I would assume if you're in a shower, but, and not every situation is appropriate for that, but I think most of them are, and you're exactly right. Why are we shipping water to each other to use in a room that produces water? it's such a simple mindset shift. And, I think we're going to save a lot of. Money and, freight costs, it's exciting to see these new products come

Ton Knipsheer: 14:23

out. Yeah, true. And, of course the packaging savings and also the convenience for the consumer. I think the consumer has to get used to it. In the old days, detergent powders were huge packs, this size, everybody go like five. 10 pounds, whatever, and now they're concentrates in a soluble, pad.

Cory Connors: 14:43

you're exactly right. It's a total mind shift and, I interviewed the team from Tide, about this and they were saying, they're trying to encourage consumers to wash their laundry in cold water, because it's more sustainable to not have to use that energy and it saves you money. Well, what they're finding is many people, generally of the older generation say, no, I've always washed my clothes in hot water. Why would you ask me to do something differently? And they're almost upset about this, idea. And they say, well, We can only show you that it works, through our science here. Yeah, true.

Ton Knipsheer: 15:26

Yeah. Agreed. Yeah, but then of course the, the natural thing is that the older generation will gradually disappear and the young generation will come in. And they will take their own little fetishes with them.

Cory Connors: 15:37

Yeah. And it's interesting though, a lot of the people I talk to are, our age and older. And they're saying, I love these new ideas. I'm, so it's not just an age thing. I think it's a mindset thing. Are you open to different ideas, and being willing to save the planet, one thing at a time. Yeah.

Ton Knipsheer: 16:00

And I think it also helps if you're in, like us, like you're in packaging, if you're in packaging, you see all these changes come about and you go like, this is a good idea. This is not such a good idea. let's go for this for that. So it's like the individually wrapped banana, like, buy it. Right.

Cory Connors: 16:18

Yes. very interesting. great point. Tom. Well, what do you got going on here next? You got a Paris packaging week. I'll see you there next week.

Ton Knipsheer: 16:27

Yeah, correct. And then, I'm going over to, Orlando, to go to the, CPA annual conference. The contract packers North America. I'll be there and I'll take my wife over then, because of the weather change. So that's something we're looking forward to engaging with the North American co packers and also the brand owners, of course, because we're seeing that as co packers that a lot of brand owners have found out that they're great at building a brand, they're not necessarily so good at actually producing it. Right. And this is where co packers and co manufacturers come in and, and fill this gap with their agility. I think this is something which is, definitely, of interest for the, for the industry and also for packaging. Yeah. Well

Cory Connors: 17:11

said. Well, very exciting. Thank you again for your time. what's the best way for people to get in touch with you so they can work with you?

Ton Knipsheer: 17:18

they can find me on LinkedIn. I'm pretty active and vocal there. they can go to conferences. There are lots of conferences in Europe coming up. I'm speaking at conferences coming up in, let me see, Frankfurt, Milan, Berlin. there are other conferences and packaging shows where I'll be. So, wow. And just find me on LinkedIn.

Cory Connors: 17:37

Busy man. I love it.

Ton Knipsheer: 17:40

Packaging is like an addiction, right? You know that.

Cory Connors: 17:42

Yeah. Well, I don't know what else I would do if I stopped doing this. Yeah. Once you're in

Ton Knipsheer: 17:47

packaging, you never get out. It's like Hotel California.

Cory Connors: 17:51

Well, thank you, sir. I appreciate your time. You're welcome. See you in

Ton Knipsheer: 17:55

Paris. See you in Paris next week. Talk

Cory Connors: 17:57

soon. Thank you. All right. Take care.

Ton Knipsheer: 17:58

Bye. Bye.