Circular Packaging Expert Andy Rose - Indeed Innovation

https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyrosew/

What is the future of Reusable / Circular packaging? 
How can companies embrace this concept while keeping customers engaged? 
Will consumers embrace this concept? 

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Transcript

Cory Connors: 0:31

Welcome to Sustainable Packaging with Cory Connors. Today's guest, my friend, Mr. Andy Rose with Indeed Innovation. He is the Director of Sustainable Circularity. How are you, sir?

Andy Rose: 0:43

I'm very good, Corey. Thanks for having

Cory Connors: 0:44

me. Good. We, for those listening, Andy and I matched today. We are wearing similar shirts. So that's a big deal. Great minds think alike, right? But let's talk about your background where it's very impressive and I'm really excited to tell The community here where you've been and what you're up to now Yeah,

Andy Rose: 1:05

sounds good. We're doing fall flannels. I guess I just realized that's right. yeah. So my background in the circularity realm, really started at loop, back in 2018. so I was fortunate to be in touch with some of the folks at TerraCycle when they were launching this thing called loop, which was transitioning their focus from thinking about. How to recycle the non-recyclable to how to design things to be reusable and then develop the reuse system to make sure they get backed, get cleaned and sanitized so that they can be refilled and circulated again. and we launched that at the World Economic Forum in 2019 with big brands like Nestle and Proctor and Gamble, and I was part of the team that helped onboard our initial brand partners. Getting them to think about new models with reusable packaging and just what that really means in terms of owning your packaging as an asset now and then later when we launched the platform, then moving over to the operation side of the business to manage the circular supply chain and building forecasting tools for now a circular supply chain, which is a little bit different than just the one directional system. I was then recruited to help. Start a company called good goods and good goods also focused on reusable packaging now with a specific focus on wine. So wine being in a format that is already durable and reusable. and so that need to redesign the packaging format to be durable really didn't need to be invested in. And so instead, the focus was more on How do we get label adhesives to be compatible with the washing process? And then creating the systems to incentivize consumers to bring back the bottles so that they could be aggregated, cleaned and then redistributed. and then I've also been able to be a part of, some independent consulting supporting organizations like Perpetual, that's focused on reusable foodware systems. and a few cities and I'm sure we'll talk a little bit more about their work, as well as helping organizations comply with the new regulation in Europe, which required in France dining on site, to be always served and reusable. And then Germany for reusable food, where to be an option. But ultimately, where I am now at Indeed Innovation. I joined about a year ago, and here we focus on circularity more broadly than just reusable packaging. That's my background and what I bring to the table, but Indeed Innovation focuses on enabling businesses to thrive in a circular economy. So what will it look like? Once we are in a circular economy, and how can, any type of business be able to be doing good by the environment and doing good by. Their business from, business standards, profitability, sustainability in that realm.

Cory Connors: 3:58

Excellent. I want to thank you and your team at loop and including Tom Zaki and some other people who have been on this show. When we talk about reusable packaging, oftentimes people will say, Oh, you mean like loop. so, certainly, tip of the spear situation there where you, started it off, I think, at least in modern day culture, of course, reusable packaging has been around for many years with things like, milk bottles, but, in modern day history, I think it's really, it's a culture shift back to that concept. so well done. Thank you for that. I think it was really impressive that launch and, has proven to be successful. of course there's a hiccups along the way. but I think we'll see more and more of that as we move forward into the world of sustainable packaging. I want to start off by giving you a compliment here. Your presentation at the sustainable packaging coalition event was really good and very rarely am I enthralled into a conversation with a speaker. And, often, and that's not to say that other speakers aren't good. It was just to say that yours was really good. So congratulations on that. And I've heard the same from other people too.

Andy Rose: 5:17

Yeah, thanks a lot, Corey. I meant a lot hearing that from you. And, I appreciate SPC encouraging me as a speaker to be honest. And, don't be afraid to be disruptive. And, people don't want to hear the same old. So I think that they really created a format where people could share ideas openly Anyone that's working in sustainability or sustainable packaging knows we're up against a lot. So sometimes we do need a little bit of that, like shaking awake of hearing some new and fresh ideas and trying to shift perspective. so I hope it serves some folks well in that regard.

Cory Connors: 5:50

True, and we need to shake it up. We need to ask those hard questions and not just, softball, easy ones. do you have any plans to speak at any future events? Or, I'm sure people are asking you now.

Andy Rose: 6:03

Yeah, so it was very busy, end of summer there. So we had SPC. And then, I was present with some colleagues at the U. S. Plastics Pact, so we got together to think about their roadmap beyond 2025, and then attended a conference here in New York, hosted by Cradle to Cradle, so I feel like, the Conferences have slowed down a little bit. I don't have anything in the pipeline right now for speaking, but, yeah, looking forward to more opportunities to share a bit of my experience about reusable packaging systems and how we design for a circular future.

Cory Connors: 6:34

Well, I'm sure those offers will come and, people are often asking me, who would you recommend for this? And I'll, so I'll put your name in there. thank you. Yeah, of course. I wanted to get your wisdom, and your perspective on maybe some mistakes that you've seen in implementing reusable packaging systems. Maybe give, give the listeners some advice there.

Andy Rose: 6:57

Yeah, absolutely. I think you brought up such a good point earlier of. Reusable packaging is honestly, like, not that innovative, right? It's almost like we gotta look backwards to remember how it was done. So there's something funny about that. but yeah, certainly no shortage of, mistakes that have been made along the way. I think a few that stand out is... Companies trying to build reused solutions and really only thinking about the packaging itself. So thinking about, oh, how do we go from a single use version of a cardboard box to a reusable version of a shipper box? And thinking too narrowly just about the packaging and the format of the packaging and the engineering of the packaging, not about the holistic system. And I think it's become pretty well known now, but maybe, Back in the loop days, I think it wasn't as well known by the reuse practitioners that we really need to be achieving a high return rate. And that's not necessarily a function of how the packaging is designed. It's about the system that it's operating in and being even just selective about which systems are we going to focus on. For reusable packaging, right? What are those good candidates where we likely can unlock the economic and environmental benefits that reusable packaging offers is really key up front. so I think people just being like, oh, let's just design it to be reusable. And that will be better. it's a mistake that I really feel like the reuse. community is maturing through right now. So we're understanding that it's more to it than just designing the packaging itself. I think also just on that choosing which scenarios are good opportunities for reuse. A lot of companies started with direct to consumer shipping. So let's swap out a cardboard box and make it a reusable shipper that maybe collapses isn't it? Has a shipping label on it. We'll just flip it over. They can put it in the mailbox, and I've seen a lot of companies move away from that now realizing that there's just a lot of consumer education that needs to be done to be able to get the return rates required to make that model environmentally better and economically feasible. and so really thinking about Environments we often refer to them as closed loop environments or in the open loop model, at least it being like a subscription model where you know the next time that you're going to ship to that customer. I think those are the ones that we're seeing more focus on now, because those seem to work better and getting the reusable packaging back.

Cory Connors: 9:26

Yeah, and exactly my thought if we don't look at the product, if it's only, if it's only consumed, if it takes a year to consume the product, reusable, probably doesn't make sense, if it takes six months, maybe not, but I'm sure there's a fine line there somewhere, which is why, milk. that's quickly consumed that obviously it's been proven over hundreds of years that, well, I don't know, many years that works. the milkman concept is a good one and easy to implement and it's successful and people like it. And. it's you keep it local and it makes sense there. like you said with wine, that, that's something you're, it's not going to stay in your fridge for very long. this is something we're going to consume over several days at the most. So, you're exactly right.

Andy Rose: 10:18

Yeah, so the ideas of aging wine, I think, are the minority of most wine consumption. Almost all wine, I think, is consumed within like one week. And to your point, those high velocity products are the ones that I think are better use cases, especially because that return on investment will happen faster. The idea in the reuse model, you're always trying to get many use cycles out of it to recoup that upfront investment. So. High velocity products, when they also fit with a model where you're likely to get the high return rate. Are those good candidates?

Cory Connors: 10:51

Well said um, I wanted to go over a specific example that, happened here recently. That, really was a, Pleasant surprise for me. I went to the Moda Center, local, sporting venue or music venue here in Oregon where the Portland Trailblazers play and they had reusable cups. and I found out it was, it's my friends at Bold Reuse, absolutely brilliant. I'd love to know your thoughts on a closed loop system like that, where it's a stadium. People are going to have a few drinks and then they're going to leave. They're going to leave the packaging there to be easily collected. What do you think of that?

Andy Rose: 11:31

Yeah, absolutely. I think those are really great models. And also, so glad you brought that up. I think rip city reuse, like that really rings nicely. it is super cool. Like MBA. com slash trailblazers slash reuse. There's a reuse URL, like in the MBA domain, right? Like how cool is that? They're representing that obviously bold reuse, sharing with their community as well. So really cool to see that represented. And you're exactly right. Those are the closed loop models that make a lot of sense. I think there is definitely a need for there to be some ambition on part of the food service management company. they're probably very used to filling beers in the cups that they've been using, putting, hot dogs or whatever the concessions are, and so maybe paper. So there does need to be some ambitious leadership, but I think it is an environment where one, the return rate will be very high because people are consuming it on site and then likely leaving it there before they return back to their cars or. However, they're getting home from the event. and then also, I think it just is such a great opportunity to publicly say Hey, we're doing something about that thing called climate change that everyone feels really bad about, right? So enjoy the basketball game, enjoy the Bruce Springsteen concert, right? Whatever you're there for, and feel good about the fact that we've created this easy infrastructure for you to Reuse instead of creating all this waste. I think those closed loop environments that venues and stadiums are also really, the ripe opportunity for reusable packaging, because they otherwise pay for those hauling costs, right? So when we think about this kind of open loop model, that's where, our tax dollars are going to You know, here in New York, the Department of Sanitation to run all these trucks to pick everything up. And so the brands that are creating the packaging really don't feel the repercussions of it. But at the stadium, they're procuring that packaging, and then they have to pay for the hauling costs for it to be, hauled away later. So there really is... A feeling of creating that waste in the financial realm that incentivizes them to think about solutions. so I really hope all around the world will see that more at stadiums and venues and, my, my German colleagues. Would be remiss if I didn't mention they always talk about bottoms up draft systems I don't know if you've ever seen these but where the cup goes on top and fills from the bottom And so it's faster dispensing of beer because you don't quite get the foam on top and those cups are reusable So maybe a technology that we'll see over here in the u. s. At some point too as these reuse systems at stadiums and venues scale up

Cory Connors: 14:15

those dispensing systems are fascinating and they're often times consumer driven meaning you go get your own drink, right you scan your card or you scan your whatever And you fill up your own pilsner or whatever style beer that you choose I think it's fascinating and like you said that it's Less foam. there are some advantages there. So really cool, concept.

Andy Rose: 14:42

Yeah, faster dispensing because everyone knows right in between quarters, right? That's when everyone's got to go use the bathroom real quick, refill their beer. So, speed of service is a important criteria for these reuse service providers to keep in mind, right? They've got to be serving fast. and so really cool to see that boulder uses getting that done for, Yeah. RIP city reuse. Really

Cory Connors: 15:02

awesome. Yeah. I get to interview, one of the team members over at the Moda center here in a few weeks. I'm really looking forward to that. so we'll keep talking about this. I think it's a critical advancement in the industry. why would we use a single use cup at something where we can easily collect? all they had to do was add or change one of, they had four, their bins have four. Compartments and they took 1 that was they had 2 that were landfill. They took 1 and they turned it into reuse. It's perfect. Well, there you go. That's easy. very minimal investment. And I know that these will be washed locally. I, within. 10 minutes, or five probably of the stadium. So, very minimal fuel use, very minimal, cost, really exciting, innovation. I would love to see the long term financial, impact, of not having to buy those single use cups. Yeah. Versus, the cost of washing and taking back. So I assume that'll be a big savings over the long run for

Andy Rose: 16:12

the Moda center. Yeah, I think that's really fair to say. And one of the things about these stadiums and venues is that it starts at scale, right? These are venues that hold tens of thousands of people. And so upfront, you're going to say, Hey, we should get the high speed cleaning equipment that can clean, thousands of cups and. An hour or whatever that kind of throughput is. and then you don't have to deal with the kind of fluctuations in global supply chains, right? Where are they getting the single use versions of these from? Likely not across the street, right? It's probably coming from overseas. So I think procurement departments are, Much more simplified. They know the inventory here. Now. They just need to think more about what's our shrink, right? How many are we losing and making sure we have safety stock on hand. and like you were saying, the fact that it can stay localized, everyone always talks about creating local jobs and it's like, well, what if I told you we were creating local jobs, reducing waste and reducing dependency on importing products from far away. I think those are good. Talking points for the local politician, right? I'm sure those ring well.

Cory Connors: 17:17

This was a win. Yeah, I agree. Well said. Yeah. Well, thank you, sir. what's the best way for people to get in touch with you, Andy?

Andy Rose: 17:26

Yeah. So I'm active on LinkedIn. you can reach out to me there. I have a little link. So if you want to set up time to chat on LinkedIn, LinkedIn is a great spot to reach me. Excellent.

Cory Connors: 17:37

Well, thank you, Andy. Really appreciate it and excited to do another podcast with you someday after six months or a year to check in on you.

Andy Rose: 17:47

Yeah, sounds great. Thanks for all the work that you do, Corey. Thank you, sir.