Tahmid Chowdhury / University of Cambridge Institute for Sustainability Leadership

https://www.linkedin.com/in/tahmidchowdhury1/

How has European Policy evolved recently? 
What impact are these new rules having on consumers? 
Is packaging actually going to be more sustainable with these laws? 

It was an honor to interview Tahmid Chowdury from the University of Cambridge Institute for Sustainability Leadership! 

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Transcript

Cory Connors: 0:31

Welcome to Sustainable Packaging with Cory Connors. Today's guest is Tamid Chowdhury. He's a program manager at the University of Cambridge.

Tahmid Chowdhury: 0:40

How are you, sir? Yeah, good. Thank you. It's a bit later in the day than it is for you. It's 5pm here at 8am yours, so I think you're a little bit more fresh.

Cory Connors: 0:51

That's all right. I'll carry it for us. let's learn about your background. Tell

Tahmid Chowdhury: 0:55

us about yourself. Yeah, sure. So first thing in terms of my role, because it's probably worth elaborating a little bit. So I work at a place called the Cambridge Institute for Sustainability Leadership. it's part of the University of Cambridge, but I actually am based out in Brussels. So our headquarters are in Cambridge as you'd expect. but I do more work out here and it's, I'm a program manager for industry. the short answer, and then I'm more than happy to elaborate, I essentially, it's around, advocating around sustainability, how we can be more sustainable, and influencing the laws, created from the European institutions. So the European union, and we do that by bringing progressive businesses together. So a lot of my job is getting those voices, see where we can have a coherent voice. and yeah, advocating for change. It's a bit about me. I'm happy to share about my background as well. If you'd like, please love to learn about that. Yeah, for sure. if it wasn't apparent from my accent, so I grew up in the UK, parents originally came from Bangladesh, stayed, studied in the UK for a while, spent some time in mainland Europe and my career background was. Has always really been on policy. if you skip some of the studenty jobs and things like that. so I worked in the UK government for about 4 and a half years. I worked in the department for business as it was known, primarily short stints other places. and yeah, my background was in European policy. So I did a master in European studies. and it's. Not a coincidence. I don't think that I ended up in Brussels where a lot of the European policies, well, the European policies, whether, the sausage gets made,

Cory Connors: 2:33

well said that's very true. the UN meets there and it's a big, international melting. Pot for policy, and they're in Europe and beyond what we're seeing in the U. S. is, we're looking to you and your teams over there to see what's happening. to see if it works, 1st of all, and to see if we should follow suit 2nd. And it sounds mixed bag so far, but I'm sure more and more policies will come to fruition. I'd love to know some of your thoughts on how those policies are evolving and how you're seeing, how effective those policies are. for in specific, packaging, if you can go that way or just sustainability, if that's easier.

Tahmid Chowdhury: 3:19

Yeah, for sure. And thank you for keeping the question open and maybe just to be helpful because I'm going to guess a lot of people, I'm sure there's international folk, but, I think it's, it looks very different from the U S and what is happening in Europe. And so maybe I'll. tailor my answer a little bit in that sense. So the European Union is a complex beast when it comes to creating policy. Indeed, any... System is, that's just as some quick facts, the European Union is 27 member states. Once upon a time was 28, until certain political events, with the UK. And so there, there is a way of making policy. and. The thing that I think where the EU is strong is, I think, particularly on some of the ways that we do regulation, which I know can, off the top, might sound a bit weird, but I think the fact that we do follow this rules based approach that I think can have a bit more of a holistic look at things, not without its faults, but I think, from a global perspective, I think the EU, one of its strengths, Is being able to set some wider policies that are actually a bit more forward looking, in terms of sustainability that doesn't come without its faults. And I think from a US audience, sometimes and a business side, it's sometimes it's well, what is that? And I think there's fair critique of it for sure. what I would also add before going a bit more into the specifics is that, I think for us in the EU, it's also a question of relevance and geopolitical autonomy. I think if we, there's The U. S. is a massive player. There's China. How do we stay relevant as the EU? okay, there's a lot of skills here. but also I think this point of we I think the future and this is certainly what, I believe in and what we look to advocate, in my role for Europe to stay relevant. I think we've got to be on the cutting edge of some of this push towards sustainability because we've got the skills for it. And also, yeah. Some of the more advanced, approaches, and taking that holistically with things like, job protection and rights and things like that, tends to happen more in Europe, again, not perfectly. And there's many things to critique, but I think that's where we're strong at a global sort of level. And I think when it comes to sustainability policy, I think it's really important that the, European level it's, it keeps on going and even if it sometimes doesn't quite get it right. He's approaching an ambitious way, and policymaking is it or not. So maybe I'll stop there with the first bite of that question.

Cory Connors: 5:53

well said and very accurate. I think we are all, on the edge of our seat. watching and, and learning from you and the people in the EU as to what's going on over there for sustainability, and specific for my world packaging. but I'd love to know maybe something that you saw that, that's working really well, maybe a policy that's been instituted that you think, Hey, this is really great. And it should be done around the world. Yeah.

Tahmid Chowdhury: 6:23

the first thing I'm going to say is that I don't know. I just intuitively like saying it because policies. Yeah. You know what? I'm going to zoom out a little bit before answering the question specifically. Sorry. Hashtag. Sorry. Not sorry. Go for it. Policy because it's helpful to understand a little bit about policy. And I think we can get some very big, shiny initiatives. What I would say is that it's helpful to also think about it is sometimes it's not really about the policy. It's about. Clear direction, good governance, and my personal view, good governance trumps strong policy. I can give an example. and I don't have the facts off the top of my head. but one that comes off the top of my head that I've heard DRS, and I always get the acronym wrong, but, deposit refund schemes, returning that actually works, strongly, extended product producer responsibility. these are nice. Policies that actually work effectively, but at the same time, a good policy instrument is a narrow one that you can clearly measure, that will do something quite specific. And when we're talking about, sustainability, circularity, which is a lot, what I focus on, what we're really talking about is systemic change. And Yes, policies are good, but I think it's also how can we talk about a real shift in almost the way that our economy even runs, which is blows your brain to even think about. and yet if say something like the EU or the US government or whoever, isn't thinking about it, well, it's probably not going to happen. And we need our policymakers to Lead, but also working with businesses to lead as well. if I may just make this point a bit, it's how can we. keep the momentum of good policies, which is backed up by strong governance, to shift around sustainability. and when I say governance, it's, yeah, how do we properly implement these things? How are we monitoring things? It's the boring stuff, but it's really important. I think it's

Cory Connors: 8:16

critical. you're exactly right. what's the point of having a policy if it's not enforced or people don't understand it or businesses can't accommodate it? Very well said, very important to this whole discussion because, like you said, the deposit return scheme, if that isn't implemented on pack, if it isn't clear that this item has a deposit and can be, and should be returned for that money back, consumers won't know what to do. So we all must work together. I think, well said, very true. Thank

Tahmid Chowdhury: 8:49

you. And if I can add on that point, it's. this is the, okay. I remember I, I have two older brothers. one worked in a consultancy and I remember talking to an aunt about it and I was a bit facetious about, working in government and it's fine when you're in a consultancy and forgive me if I'm being a bit crass here, but same as business, you can there are things that we just expect. the roads are going to be there. The okay, maybe tax system is not the best, most, that's a bit more of a sore point, we expect these things to be there. So likewise with a DRS system or a DRS, you're expecting a place where there's even the infrastructure to be there. And so when you look at it in EU level, there are certain countries that do this really well, because there's been a policy of really promoting and building the infrastructure, many countries there's not. And And, if a business is just wanted to come in and do it, well, you need the investment and you need longer term vision towards it. this would be the point as a. I guess a somewhat defensive policy because I know it can be like politicians and they squeak wag and stuff It's not a simple game. And I also am more than happy to critique many policies, don't get me wrong But I think it's really vital because you need that longer term vision of okay Where are we really going with this and it's a tricky job? you know when I was working in government like ministers, You don't really realize it, even as a government official or certainly within a business and I'm really not looking to take away from it, but the amount of people with different interests. And when you're in a space where you're meant to represent everyone, that is a, can be a headache. it's a distinct pleasure, but it's also tough.

Cory Connors: 10:22

It's almost guaranteed to be a headache, right? Well said because not, you can't, there's no way you can satisfy everyone. I'd love to know your thoughts on, are consumers adapting to these new, laws and rules, are they on board with it, or are they pushing back?

Tahmid Chowdhury: 10:39

it's not the most pretty picture, I would say, how do I answer that? The short answer is probably not as much as we would hope. I think consumers are still quite far away from it and this is where it's really important. so for me, I, I live in Brussels. A lot of the people here are in the sort of. political space. And so we can get so caught up, same in Washington, same in London, although London's probably a bit bigger. you can get so caught up in the political thing, you can lose touch. And I think this is where we get a bit of this sort of elitist bubble. and even people are really trying and really looking to go out. It's still something that fall in because it's, my day to day, if I'm spending all the time talking to policy people, You lose touch and bringing in a different aspect, which we talked a bit off air in terms of the point on diversity, even when I look to talk about this stuff, it's It's probably helpful that I have a slightly different background than a lot of the people around me because, hey, illustratively, I go back to my mom or my dad a little bit. My mom doesn't get, doesn't understand this, it comes from parents came from Bangladesh, I'm a second generation, migrant. we were pretty successful. now we've got a relatively easy lifestyle and that's great. but this language that we use quite often in sustainability, like it's just, it's. gobbledygook, for most usual people. And, also the thing that's, I'm sure it's felt somewhat in the U S but in Europe, really feeling it with the energy crisis of the, with the, your Russian, invasion Ukraine, it's okay. People see, understand climate change, but if you've got to heat your house and feed your kids. it's, to some extent, it's a luxury to really think about some of the sustainability things. there's so many issues. So that's the balance. And so it's not, I think it can be quite easy to villainize people and be like, Oh, well, people don't care or all this stuff. But it's, I think this is the level of getting to good like governance of understanding that. There's a lot of different things to consider. And so we've got to really make the effort to make this relevant for people and make it easy for people. Otherwise, yeah, if you've got to feed your kids, who's going to say to a mother, don't feed your kids,

Cory Connors: 12:41

Exactly. I believe that. I interviewed my friend, Shondrew, Wadwani from South Africa, and he runs a recycling facility there. And he said, Corey, sustainability is a luxury. And not all people can afford that and I said, wow, really put it into perspective. Like you just said, not everyone is focusing on it. Of course, some people don't care at all because they're focusing on survival. And, I totally understand that and appreciate that. But let's hope that a future, is possible where sustainability can be even more affordable for all of us. You think that's possible?

Tahmid Chowdhury: 13:56

Yeah, for sure. And this is, so some of the stuff I do outside of work is also, I got really into The personal development space. and I think there's a real role here because I think we can get so doom and gloom. certainly in the po political cycle these days. And the way that we can just get media into our, negative news is the news cycle. And so the doom and gloom is it's not far. Like we, it's certainly there if any of us want it. but yeah, I'm, I think it's returning to the. The mindset that we hold about this, like we can see what we want to see. We, if we want to see that everything is do, we're all doomed. So whatever, give up, we'll find answers to show that. But I think if we can look for spaces where there's signs of hope, then great. it's there as well. there's so many really interesting, innovative things going on. one of, Like looking at some of the case studies that we do. so we work with businesses for this point of okay, how can we put this stuff in practice? And yeah, recycling rates of say aluminum are really high. Yeah, great. some really interesting innovations. one that really sticks out, I think, Some of the detergents that you make, one of the stats that we published in one of our reports from our, one of our members, Unilever, they played around with, okay, and I'm probably slightly misquoting it, but rather than refilling your detergent, Doing it through a really concentrated amount. So you actually just add water and that reduces transport costs and transport emissions by like something over 90%. And it's a really interesting, innovative way of doing it. And so the role that I really believe we play and for me is to show that. Okay. That there's an opportunity here to do some really cool stuff and make it relevant for people. plastic bags being banned was such a simple thing and it's just changed so much. I don't know what it's like in the U. S. in terms of, but it might be a state level or something. Right? Yeah.

Cory Connors: 15:46

Very fractured. Yeah. Yeah.

Tahmid Chowdhury: 15:48

yeah, I think that's made a really big impact. And it was that, that's one of the, it's not all like that, but you can have things that can make a massive impact. and hey, if nothing else to Let's just see the example of COVID where things moved like crazy when people really united The speed of technology and shifters is there too, so there's a more hopeful message. Yeah,

Cory Connors: 16:13

I love that. And you're right. COVID was a fast forward button for a lot of this and a lot of policy and a lot of packaging innovations. I had Frederic Dreux from Unilever on the podcast and he was. He was talking about concentrates and, reusable makeup packaging and really innovative, fantastic things that, are starting to come to fruition now. Cause that was about a year ago. but, 800 brands under Unilever Prestige are working hard to, to innovate and accommodate these new laws. So very exciting stuff. So you're going to, packaging Europe. You want to talk about that or you're speaking there. Is

Tahmid Chowdhury: 16:51

that right? Yeah, that's right. And I think Probably not a massive surprise considering what I said thus far. It's yeah that the european policy landscape and I think it would be remiss of me not to talk about some of the packaging there's the packaging waste regulation that's going through the the grinder, in the european union, there's no point in me mentioning the individual institutions, but I think my sense on this stuff, and I will go a little bit more specific, but I will, feel free to give me a shake if I go so technical that I, not even technical on the packaging, but technical on with EU jargon, bring

Cory Connors: 17:21

on the wisdom.

Tahmid Chowdhury: 17:22

Yes. So I think this is another space where we see. Yeah, I think the EU has been pulling or bringing more circular economy policy, is how it's being branded. So they had this very clear thing of, European green deal, meeting our Targets, and enshrining that in law, I think that's been a really powerful signal, not without it's, bumps in the road and okay, how do we make this happen in practice? it's a very tricky question, but it sets the direction. and as a side note, I think with policy sometimes quite often it is setting direction without knowing how, which is an uncomfortable space, but, yeah. Also just as a. Because I know many people look at policies and be like, yeah, but how are you ever going to do this? Sometimes you need to do that. And sometimes it can go so far that actually it's devoid of reality. And that's the balance to play, which I think is probably a good place to come in with this new packaging and packaging waste regulation that, I think it, it brings more okay, setting regulation that, wants more recycling. I think it is a, yeah, I think it's a positive step in terms of, I think ambition is really positive. the thing that for those of us a bit closer, it caused a lot of noise and controversy, which was unfortunate because I think some of it was, the EU has a lot or Brussels has, I call it a circus because there's so many voices. So it's really hard. To tell what's the sort of chalk from the chaff it's what is really legitimate issues versus, okay, big lobbying, big conservative businesses wanting to just slow it down because it costs a lot of money and that side now with the packaging and packaging waste regulation, I think we saw a bit of both that, It wasn't the most evidence based piece of legislation and it had bits on reuse and refill that were yeah, the original proposal had a lot that was asserting almost that reuse was like a really positive thing. So it had targets on recycling and reuse, which actually was just quite confusing and it wasn't the best policy. and also so you had legitimate businesses. so some of our members as well, just being like, well, hang on, do we want to redesign it? This, the way this is written, almost, is it saying that we have to redesign our products to also be reusable rather than recyclable? And if you're a manufacturer that, yeah, it's potentially very alarming if you're very good at one product. it's a big

Cory Connors: 19:39

shift, right, right.

Tahmid Chowdhury: 19:42

The good thing is that so it's created a lot of noise, but I think it's been the way that our institutions work. Like you have the European commission publishing something first, and then it gets amended by the different, we can call them legislators. and. I think the text has improved a lot and it's taking out some of that. and I guess going back to your question about the consumer, my concern with this one was that it creates lots of noise, it caricatured as businesses on one side, NGOs and positives on the other, some quite often it was a lot more nuanced. And the fact that certain bits of this regulation wasn't like the impact assessment wasn't great. Like it just didn't talk about certain parts. I think it, it brings a lot of doubts. And a lot of this is about trust as much as, actual policy, because if you believe in something and it's a target. It's completely different, even if the target is exactly the same, if you don't believe in it. so it's a, it really is a political game of bringing people with this, certainly on sustainability. I think the risk of this file is that it's fed in a little bit of there's a feeling of fatigue going around and too much legislation, as a narrative in Brussels and not without reason there has been a lot and it's not You have a piece of legislation over here and another one over here. And if it's, it gets quite confusing and quite hard to actually know what you have to do. So that is a legitimate point, but also that's the important thing is that's not a reason to like, okay, let's just pause on sustainability policy because it's we've got to do something. So without going too much further into it, I think hopefully that gives a good flavor of, I think some of the things going on in our weird and wonderful world of Brussels.

Cory Connors: 21:23

Yeah. Yeah. And very important points. are we doing too much? Are we not doing enough? is it too little too late? There's a feeling of, like you said, frustration, Hey, maybe we could just get this, figure out this policy and then try another one. But no, instead they're instituting four at the same time. And even more I've heard are in the works. So let's hope that doesn't get muddled and confused.

Tahmid Chowdhury: 21:49

The one thing I would say about this is, I think it's not about, I think the framing of less and more is probably not the most, isn't the way I would phrase it in to, to be the most, constructive. Let's put it that way. I think it's about, can we just improve the way that we do policies? Cause it's not really about the amounts. Sometimes you do need more. and. Let's be honest, if the market was going to just sort this problem out, we would be a lot further ahead. there is, and there, I think there has to be some level of leniency for mishaps just because of the nature of policy. And that's not a popular thing to say. Now that said, I think it's about improving. Policymaking in the first place, like how can we make it more holistic? So it's not it's a very practical thing. We forget sometimes these big institutions, they are just humans. So you get this building over here, which is, I don't know, the environment directorate general. And then you get one over here, which is more focused on competitiveness industry. And like any organization, if they don't talk to each other very well, which spoiler alert, they don't always, this is where you get the issues. And so if we can improve the way that it's just a lot more. Coherent and comprehensively thought about not an easy task, also including, I don't know, more stuff around, say, just transition, how fair are we making this? And all many other elements, again, this is the thing with government. You can't just care about one thing. but I think that's something to really strive for. And the more we can do that, the less we'll have these issues, because I think the issues are just one person saying one thing, another person saying another. It's confusing.

Cory Connors: 23:23

Right. Well, thank you so much. This has been awesome. I really appreciate your wisdom and I'm excited to meet you in person in, Amsterdam in November packaging Europe. can you tell the audience how to get in touch with you?

Tahmid Chowdhury: 23:38

Yeah, for sure. just to say, yeah, a real pleasure. yeah, hopefully this was insightful. maybe something slightly different and, an introductory side to understand a bit more about what's going on in Europe. so you can reach me. I think best is on LinkedIn. I'm also on Instagram. But, so I think, My actual LinkedIn, if you search Tamir Chowdhury, I think my actual handle is Tamir Chowdhury one. let me just, yeah, it's so T A H M I D C H O W D H U R Y one as in the number. and yeah, I'm pretty, I use social media a lot. So if you drop me a message and stuff, I'll, I do tend to reply. I sometimes miss ones, but I'm one of the more responsive people I know.

Cory Connors: 24:17

Well, that's wonderful. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it and excited to see you in just a

Tahmid Chowdhury: 24:22

few weeks. Yeah. Thank you so much for the opportunity.