Can Cannabis packaging be sustainable? Ron Basak-Smith / Sana PKG

https://sanapackaging.com/

Ron@sanapackaging.com 

What if we could reuse Cannabis packaging? 
What if there was a deposit on Cannabis packaging? 
Could we recycle cannabis packaging? 

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Transcript

Cory Connors: 0:31

Welcome to sustainable packaging with Cory Connors . Today's guest is Mr. Ron, Basak - Smith, who is a co-founder of Sana packaging. Hey, Corey, how's it going? Good, man. How are you doing good. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to have you on, I haven't had anybody from the cannabis packaging space yet, and it is a often requested topic in the sustainable world. So I'm thrilled to have you on and learn about your expertise. Can you tell us about your background? We'll get into.

Ron Basak - Smith: 1:04

Yeah. So he say got in the packaging as a disgruntled the cannabis consumer. So, you know, no, no formal education in it. But I'd be in the world of packaging, but you know, I, I moved to Colorado in 2011. So kind of sell the legalization process happened and I was working in the liquor industry at the time and just saw a ton of single use packaging and saw what was going on with the cannabis space. And I was like, what's the game plan here? How are we going to do this? You know, just another wasteful industry and night. Bye hunter at that time was that there's people within the cannabis space that care about the environment and want to put their products in packaging. That role be less impacted. And then what is out there? So that was kinda how we kind of found my way into it.

Cory Connors: 1:53

That's excellent. I absolutely agree with you. Cannabis consumers are generally some of the most environmentally conscious people like. And absolutely the most upset by the terrible single use packaging that's been provided in that space was Colorado. The first state to legalize.

Ron Basak - Smith: 2:16

No, Colorado is not, not the first California was way back and then they went rec and then I think, I want to say Oregon, Oregon, and Washington, but yeah, Colorado was, I think went rack in 2014. So,

Cory Connors: 2:36

yeah. And when you say went rec you mean recreational use of cannabis? Yeah,

Ron Basak - Smith: 2:42

because I think in 2011, I wanna say maybe a little before that even was. Right. Yeah.

Cory Connors: 2:50

It's such a powerful medicine. And so many people are seeing that the effects of it can, can cure things. And it's incredible to see and, and to, to watch that happen when, for, for our lives before that it was so Well illegal and and just frowned upon, but now we're seeing all the positive effects of it, which is great. Can you, can you tell us about Santa packaging? What, what kinds of, what kinds of packaging do you offer and, and why is it more sustainable than what was offered

Ron Basak - Smith: 3:24

in the. Yeah. So, you know, we, with, with the cannabis industry and packaging, there's some unique regulations around requirements. As far as child resistance capacity in some states will all thickness. And so basically, and then there's just a plethora of different cannabis products that require different types of packaging. And so this industry kind of just popped up alongside The market that, you know, with all these cannabis products that were being sold in stores and stuff. That's kind of, I think the, you know, the starting point is that there's this a need for new packaging. And then, you know, looking at the packaging as a start, you know, a lot of it was Virgin material. There's some nuances around cannabis recycling, or sorry about recycling that make cannabis packaging even more difficult. You know, it's a lot of small stuff black and so there's, there's all these nuances of, Hey, this is not only. More single use packaging with this packaging. Some of the regulations have made packaging inside. They're not recyclable or difficult to recycle. And then for us as a company, that's really where we started and said, Hey, how can we in this new industry provide packaging that is going to reduce the impact. We've kind of taken, you know, we, we see ourselves as a material agnostic company. We don't say that the materials are the. Fix this problem. It's a systems problem. A materials could work within that system and some work better than others. And so that's kind of where we're always w we're we're looking towards. And so, you know, one side of philosophy is that we don't want to use Virgin material. So everything we use is a reclaimed material. They use reclaimed ocean bound material for our products for one line of our products. And then the other philosophy is that you know, the world of plastic. It needs to evolve and, you know, we shouldn't be using finite resources for that. And, you know, while everything is a trade-off, we also think that there's this future in plant-based packaging. And so that's a, that's another path that we look at and make some products using hemp as a, as an input there. And yeah, you know, it's. As we continue to evolve, we're kind of looking for that next, next material type. That makes the most sense. But it's difficult right now kind of working within the system. And, and, and all the nuances around Canada.

Cory Connors: 5:36

I didn't know about the wall thickness requirements and, or, or did I, nor did I know about the opacity requirements which is like it's the worst case scenario for packaging?

Ron Basak - Smith: 5:48

Yeah, it is, you know, it's interesting too, because it's not in every state, some states and the capacities and interesting one from products. You know, in terms of letting light through UV, degregation of what is a plant, right? And so cannabinoids and stuff are degregaded from light, from light hitting it. And so from a shelf life standpoint you, you probably want some type of UV protection with this also varies product by product too. So just kind of this blank. Opacity is difficult. It's difficult for the consumer in some states to interact with the products, see what they're getting, kind of like that you know, there's a lot of situations where you get shown like the w one nice bud, and then whatever you get in here with packages, isn't always the best. So the bait and switch. Yeah. Yeah. Classic.

Cory Connors: 6:32

Well, that's an interesting challenge for. The retailers, which, which they call bud tenders as I'm, as I'm I've come to know. I think it's a cool name. Do you feel like we could get to a system where this could be a reusable packaging

Ron Basak - Smith: 6:49

process? So that's ultimately what we'd want. I think, you know, the cannabis industry, we have to think of it differently than, you know, to go foods or food food you make in food court, or even like a beer growler system, because. These dispensaries oftentimes would operate more. So like, you'd see like a pharmacy or like a Walgreens type store where there. Where they're carrying multiple brands, it's consumer packaged goods and the consumers making a purchasing decision based upon the packaging that they're seeing, the branding and all of that versus, you know, to go place where you're buying the food. And it just happens. They come in either, you know, metal pad compostable packaging or whatever sustainable option that might be out there. And so I think, and then even in the growler model that you see in breweries, it's different because they can fill the product right there at the tab versus many cannabis models are not in the cannabis industry. Some people call it like deli style where, you know, you can go in and they'll fill up a jar directly in front of you, but that's kind of phasing out. Some states they'll do it. And some states it's not even allowed. So in those states, that kind of return model. It's difficult, but I think there's some we're trying to figure out ways within the industry to keep the packaging while it might not be a direct return and refill. How can we take that packaging collected in store, find out what is potentially, maybe reusable and then stuff that isn't reusable can recycle it and remanufacture it. You know, the child resistance thing. A question mark there. So, you know, there's definitely people working on that we're working on on that process. And you know, ultimately that's where we want to go with, with packaging. I think all the things around cannabis make it really difficult. Just some of the regulations, you know, moving this product in between state lines. But, you know, I ultimately we're in very nascent stages of the industry. It's going to take, you know, 20, 30, 40, 50 years really, between before some of these issues get worked up.

Cory Connors: 8:49

That's a great point. A lot of us don't realize how new this is and how you've just been around for a couple of years. Give us, it's like, give us a break, let us give us some time to figure this out.

Ron Basak - Smith: 9:03

Right. Yeah. And I, you know, I think there's also a hesitancy from operation. Because of the amount of regulation in the industry and how difficult it is to just get up and running. So it's like, all right, this is working. Let's not rock the ship. I'm investing in all these other things we're trying to grow. I mean, it's, I think the industry is competitive and it's, it's only getting more competitive as it continues to go on. So adding that next more complications and do it around regulations. And so, you know, for us as a, as a packaging company, Selling sustainable packaging, you know, that's added increased costs. We're cognizant of that. And ultimately just has to be straightforward to the customers around, you know, here's the, this is the cost to produce a product that meets these sustainability goals that, you know, we're all looking for.

Cory Connors: 9:48

Excellent. And have you noticed with the changes or the legalization of hemp nationally, have you noticed that the, the laws on the hemp packaging or CBD or C, B or C G B, there's all kinds of, all of those that are even like, I've seen them now at grocery stores, like national chains, having noticed them really relaxed the laws on, on that.

Ron Basak - Smith: 10:16

So, you know, that's, that's kind of, I think sits in a different realm than the TA you know, THC side of things.

Cory Connors: 10:24

Business doesn't do that. We focus

Ron Basak - Smith: 10:27

on, we service some non THC products but it's, it's just a different space. And I think there's, you know, a ton of packaging that's already like that exists and is available. That works for that. But, yeah, it'd be interesting to kind of see how that evolves with regulations. You know, as far as the caveat VA is watching it and versus our space. And so definitely another area where sustainable packaging is needed.

Cory Connors: 10:56

Well, like you said, everywhere it's needed everywhere and that's, that's what we're here to do. And that's what we're here to educate people on. How, how can consumers help? What, what can consumers do to make it can they, can they focus on the. The recyclable packaging or what, what would you recommend?

Ron Basak - Smith: 11:17

Yeah, you know, I always kind of take this question a different, different direction. Cause I always feel like in the world of recycling and waste, the responsibility is always put on risk on consumer. Oh, I agree.

Cory Connors: 11:30

And my next question is how can the, how can the companies,

Ron Basak - Smith: 11:33

yeah, so yeah, so consumers, I think it's actually asking more of companies and asking more of their local municipalities and just asking for more clarity around recycling and what's actually happening. How can we make this a more effective system? You know, I think the recycling industry is evolving. Every day in terms of the market where these materials are going. And then the flip side of that, you know, it becomes, if the recycling industry only works, if there's companies buying recycled product, right. So, you know, consumers can do their part, creating clean stream, separating things properly, but then ultimately, you know effort to, to use and make sure that companies are buying that material. You know, that's kind of what we say to our customers. It's like, when they're like, oh, why is this more? It's like, well, you know, because recycled materials cost more than Virgin materials. And as long as that's the case, we have to kind of drive that market in that direction. If we want recycling to work, otherwise we'll have to find other systems. To, to manage this stuff. And so it's you know, we got to kind of all jump on board and not just say, okay, consumers deal with it. And then not local municipalities and businesses, handoff hands-off and.

Cory Connors: 12:42

It's exciting to see. And I agree a hundred percent. This is not the consumer's job. But we all have to contribute to the solution. I, I'm excited to see the advent of extended producer responsibility really putting an onus on manufacturers and people like me in the packaging world to say, Hey guys, you, you need to make things that are easy to. Or these items are made out of high levels of post-consumer recycled material or post-industrial, and that kind of a chain. Will trickle down into a easier decisions for consumers and less work for

Ron Basak - Smith: 13:19

consumers. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think the consumers has a lot of different messages coming at them right now, a lot of different options. And so yeah, simplifying it for the consumer would be, it would be.

Cory Connors: 13:32

I agree a hundred percent. So can you give us a couple of examples of actual, like, do you have any packaging there you could show so we can talk about it that, that you guys are kinda known for. I know you said high, high PCR, but is it like the duke tubes or is

Ron Basak - Smith: 13:49

it yeah, the one that. Probably number one sign product is, is tubes. And in this one right here, we're pretty excited about it's we currently are using a HDPE, so number two material, and we're going to be transferring this tube over to a PET . So number one, pretty excited. We don't see a lot of pet in the cannabis space right now. It's a lot of fives and but I'm only five, some, some to some HDP but not much pet and, you know, back to that consumer simplification process. And then. Yeah. From a product quality standpoint, pec is going to interact with cannabis better than any of those other plastics. And so that's

Cory Connors: 14:29

excellent. What color will it be? Will it be opaque? Like the one you held up?

Ron Basak - Smith: 14:33

Yeah. So this it'll be a white we'll start in white. I mean, we try to encourage white to our customers and almost all of our products are white. We have. It's kind of one of those things. Well, you know, people are using black black is an idea. We'd be tell them, but there's just some brands that that's a color that aligns with them. And so we will be offering it in black. And then we can do some custom colors for where companies are looking for, you know, specific brand focused stuff. But yeah, we start, start with white, kind of keep it simple, but you know, that's back to that simplification for the process and everything is start with a base weight. It's going to be a higher value in the secondary market. So that's

Cory Connors: 15:11

excellent. And are you working on any kind of program where, where stores can collect all tubes or is there a process like that?

Ron Basak - Smith: 15:22

So, yeah, we are actively trying to figure that out here in the state of Colorado, we we have a grant to we've modified a mold and now we are getting the systems in place to basically take back packaging. There's already a couple of companies within the state that do that sorted. We would take the material that is not deemed reusable in terms of like current functionality. It might have a crack in it or whatever's going on. And, you know, remanufacture, those are manufactured that material and then YouTube sell it back to the customer. And this is a, you know, our pilot programming this, because we really have to, we're trying to do from a material standpoint has created a consistent supply and must, you know, in some ways commoditize it so that a company like us can purchase that material, manufacturer it, and, you know, create a product that's scalable versus. Yeah, just kind of a one-off type of thing. And so, yeah, these are, there's definitely a us and other companies within the industry trying to work on this. I think state by state it's happening due to, you know, everything is state, state by state right now. But you know, maybe that, that could be useful too, in the pilot phase program, that kind of understanding what it looks like in a local area. That's that's our goal is to have the collection compounding and manufacturing all within the day. City region and so localizing it as much as possible. Well, that's

Cory Connors: 16:42

really exciting. I didn't know that programs like that were happening and, and good for you. And what a great way to use some grant money for environmental causes a well done. Yeah.

Ron Basak - Smith: 16:52

Yeah. We're a super grateful that the state of Colorado is trying to. Figure some of these problems out

Cory Connors: 16:58

well. And as leaders in the space, you know states like Colorado, Oregon, California, need to figure this out and need to need to be you know, like you and, and really aggressively solving these problems so that they can go national someday it will most likely be national and. We assume so,

Ron Basak - Smith: 17:22

but that hold my breath. Right.

Cory Connors: 17:26

So what do you see in the future? Or are you excited about that as the reasonable option? Recyclable option?

Ron Basak - Smith: 17:32

Yeah, I think as a, as an industry, going back to that producer responsibility concept that the cannabis industry is not a clean industry, right? Like all, oh, like any industry that's producing something. There's inputs. And there's an extra niceties that are happening from the creation of products. So for us, what we can do as an industry is try to keep it within the industry as much as possible. And I think. The packaging specifically, once it kind of enters the larger commoditized recycling space, we, we might not be able to get as much value out of it, unless it, if, as opposed to keeping it within the industry and kind of having that value. Product that people are saying, Hey, you know, if this is the true cost to create every reclaimed or recycled or reuse, reuse model within a region, like that's the cost. And let's, let's see if we can implement that into the cost of the product. And, you know, it's, it's a wishful thinking, right? Because we're, we're always under the pressure of the market. And we'll see how the can. Emphasis the cannabis industry really puts on these things and you see it. There's definitely companies that care and they're, you know, approaching it in different ways. But ultimately I think there's going to be continual pressure from consumers from, to on brands to put out product that considers the environment, whether it's from production, cultivation, distribution, to packaging, all of it.

Cory Connors: 19:00

Absolutely. I agree. And maybe it could be a deposit system where you, you know, it's a, it's a nickel and a

Ron Basak - Smith: 19:09

bring it back. New York state has proposed propose that there's a Senator. There is put a, you know, put a bill out. And I think those types of things like going back to the bottle return stuff we got to value the material and we got to value the environment and. Paying for the systems that allow that to happen and deposit systems are awesome. You know, I think one thing that drives me crazy in the cannabis industry right now is because of. We can't bank. There's, there's no banking when there's a steep credit card processing charge. Cause they're using like the cashless ATM thing. So it's like $3 on every purchase you use. That's going to credit card processing versus to something like a deposit system. You know, $3 had already cannabis purchase. You'd have zero waste issue with, with the, you know, you'd be able to manage it in many different ways that aren't currently economically bad.

Cory Connors: 20:05

That's a good point. And, and absolutely it just seems like a simple solution. Like, Hey, let us do this and everybody wants it. Well, most people want it just to support the process and let us do good things for the

Ron Basak - Smith: 20:18

environment. Sometimes that's kind of like, yeah. Almost where I feel where really get the conversation in sustainable packaging, where it's like, yeah. So you can come up with all these different solutions for materials and whatever, but let's also along with that, make sure that we're making it clear that it costs money to manage this stuff so that, you know, maybe we can all just get on board and say, Hey. There's a tax for packaging, you know, there's a tax for waste of products or something. It doesn't even have to be a tax, but there's, there's many different ways. You know, people don't like taxes, so you have to call it something else. We'll call it something else. But there's, there's gotta be a way to, to incorporate the the cost of the system that needs to be there for, for this type of stuff.

Cory Connors: 21:01

Totally agree. So how do, how do people get ahold of you, Ron?

Ron Basak - Smith: 21:05

Yeah, so we have a website it's on a packaging.com and you have reached out to us there. We can set up a call. We always happy to just talk sustainability with folks there's, you know, as every state opens up, people like. Kind of wondering, you know, what can we do within our state, within our eggs and the packaging that's available. So I was happy to have those conversations. My email is ron@sanapackaging.com. You can shoot me an email directly there. And yeah, that's probably the two best ways to get in touch with.

Cory Connors: 21:39

Excellent. And I'll put that in the show notes. So call us if you're listening, you should just build a click below. Thank you so much, Ron. And thank you, Landsberg Orora for sponsoring the podcast. We appreciate it. If you are listening, please take a second to review it and share it with your friends. Make sure you're subscribed. So you don't miss the next episode. Thank you so much, Ron. We appreciate it.

Ron Basak - Smith: 21:59

Thanks Corey. Appreciate it.